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Letters from AA friend
Hi again James,
Had a quick look at your site. Please, please take the following as intelligent debate. I most certainly am not brainwashed! I think, walk, talk for myself not AA!! I most certainly do not agree with a lot of what you say - if AA disappeared today, I would remain sober, although I would find it more difficult as I would have to try harder to seek people out to share my innermost fears and feelings, which for me is the key to remaining sober. (I've tried both ways - sharing it all with a peer group who empathises works better for me). This peer group could be found outside of AA, but for me, finding it within AA is easier, quicker and more convenient.
I did not accuse you of being brainwashed. I refer to brainwashing twice on the website – 1) ‘When I was a member of A.A. I had been brainwashed into believing that anyone who doubted this program was ignorant and evil.’ 2) ‘People in AA openly admit that they may be being brainwashed by this program, but then go on to justify this by stating that their brains need washing.’ Neither of those two statements mention you. The second one refers to ‘people’ and People in AA do say this; I am quite sure you have heard it at a number of meetings. Perhaps you thought I said, ‘Everyone in AA…’ But I might add, if you do ‘think, walk, talk for myself,’ how do you practice Step Three? (I am asking you that with an open-mind; I am merely curious to know how this is possible.)
What if people have friends outside of AA that they can share their inner most fears with? I have always had a close group of friends who lead healthy, and dare I say it, manageable lives. I don’t believe it is imperative that I share these feelings with an alcoholic exclusively. We are all human, we do not need to be alcoholics to feel pain, despair, fears, etc. It makes me feel uncomfortable when I consider closing people off to my inner most fears simply because they have not ‘shoved vodka down their neck.’ I don’t want to use the label of being an alcoholic as an excuse to isolate myself on a deeper emotional level with anyone. I think it is nonsense to suggest that only an alcoholic can ever understand another alcoholic. One way to make sure this myth remains ‘true’ is to tell ‘normies’ that they can never understand us. End of share. Of course they are going to retreat from us if you kill any chance of them getting to know us; what choice do they have? As for sharing these feelings being your key to staying sober, we will have to disagree on that one. If I wanted to stay sober, I would say the key is realising I have a choice in whether I get drunk or not – if I drink I am responsible for my actions, both for taking the drink and whatever I may do under the influence of alcohol, or indeed drugs.
To tell you the truth, it comes some of it across as the mad rantings of someone who's very sore about something. I do in fact know 7 people who've died of drink/drug addiction and who never once put a foot in an AA room. I know 3 who've died as a result of relapsing and moving away from AA.
I agree I am very sore about something. I am sore at being sold this program as being the only way in which to recover since the age of 19. It clearly is not and despite everything you say, in the rooms it is made very clear that those that ‘do not follow our path end up in jails, institutions or morgues.’ I am not suggesting that the only people who die from alcohol or drugs are those who leave AA, but what I am saying is that a belief in Step One can become a self-fulfilling prophecy for many of them. I think there is some truth in my opinion which is backed up by the research. (Have a look at this page for more info.) I am not sure that questioning this program and expressing my experience of the 12 steps is grounds for labelling me ‘mad.’ If the fact that God as you understand him has not granted me a belief in this program leads you to think I am mad then I suppose I can see where you are coming from, but you are wrong…I do not believe in the 12 Step recovery model. In order to be regarded as sane by you are you suggesting that I should ‘fake it to make it’ or lie until I do believe it? Where is the honesty in doing that? I don’t want to get hung up on that. If we are going to have a serious debate about this then I would ask you to refrain from petty insults. I think that is fair. One final point on the death thing – Bill Wilson wrote. “Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles.” (Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Bill Wilson, page 174.) I think that speaks for itself – do it our way or die… may as well put a gun to someone’s head. I could quote more of teachings to that effect but I think this one alone says it all.
My feeling is that you've been caught up and bogged down in the cult end of the fellowship - Joys of Recovery and Vision For You - which only exist in London and are widely discredited. I share about whatever I want good, bad, ugly - maybe you've been going to meetings which are not suitable for your current state of mind? Joys and Vision are based on the writings of the Oxford Group which have also been widely discredited within the organisation. Joys and Vision without a doubt are cultish. That's why I don't get involved in them at all.
If I have been caught up in the cult aspects of the group as you say and they are isolated to those groups (which I disagree with because I believe most AA groups are cultish) then what steps are taken to ensure that any newcomer does not get involved with such groups at a time when they are both vulnerable and receptive to being recruited into them? It is all very well to say the likes of you and I know better, but what about those poor folk who don’t? You inadvertently highlight one of A.A.’s most serious problems, that no one can put in place any measures to protect these people because A.A. cannot change. A.A. is one of the most closed minded organisation in the world believing that everything in the Big Book is gospel and that the 12 Steps are infallible. Any new research is ignored by A.A. unless it supports the disease model and the Steps, regardless of whether this research has any basis or not. Are you suggesting that the death of self in these individuals is acceptable as long as the minority get what they need? What are you doing, or anyone for that matter, to protect these ‘newcomers’ from those groups you pinpoint as being ‘cultish’? I agree that some groups are more cultish than others, but it is my opinion that A.A. is a cult by it’s very nature – it sets out to remove the will of the newcomer and replace it with its interpretation of God under the guise of letting the person choose his or her own Higher Power but if that Higher Power did not believe in Steps 4 – 12, or even Step 1, what would happen then? There are conditions in place and a pressure to fit this Higher Power to the norm. People are free to choose their Higher Power for a while, but they are not free to choose how they interpret that Higher Power’s will. Besides, handing one’s will over to God as we understand him is a choice in itself, driven by one’s own will, which reduces Step Three to an act of self-will anyway. Is it not the case that God’s will is really doing what A.A. tells us is right?
I don't doubt that there are other ways of staying sober - I've found that 12 Step Fellowships are the easiest. Unlike Psychotherapy they also remove blame of parents/past experiences which is a sad and pathetic way of living and something I used to do all the time. The buck stops at me as far as I'm concerned and I have no excuse for anti-social behaviour of any sort. 12 Step programmes also provide community, which most dysfunctional people don't have. That's a fact. Addicts isolate and only communicate on a very shallow level. Psychotherapy doesn't improve this (I was in therapy for 7 years before finding a 12 Step programme), and I only communicate now because I have a peer group with whom I can empathise and who empathise with me.
You don’t doubt there are other ways to stay sober but you have called me ‘mad’ for being outspoken against A.A. and have attempted to persuade me throughout your letter that I am wrong. If you do believe there are other ways in which to recover why don’t you tell me about those ways instead of telling me I am wrong about A.A? Could it be that to do so would be in conflict with Bill Wilson’s dogma that to do it any other way would be to sign my own ‘death warrant’? As for your view on considering the consequences of other people’s behaviour on someone’s past as being sad and pathetic, I think that is a little harsh. What if someone has genuinely been hurt by others as a child, or even as an adult? There is a difference to being a victim and playing the victim. That statement effectively removes blame and reduces the victim to the perpetrator. If I was going to call you mad, then it would be now, but I once believed that too, so I can understand how you have reached that conclusion. Step 4 forces us to list our resentments and tells us when we feel uncomfortable or ill at ease then there must be something wrong with us. Hmmm. A.A. does provide a community but not one that encourages individual thought as your letter clearly demonstrates. When I was in A.A. social circles I very much felt like I had to tow the party line. You may have the strength of character not to be like this, but consider the rest of those people in A.A. whose Higher Power is A.A. – they are forced into feeling bad if they do not agree with it’s principles, it’s dogma and it’s so-called suggestions.
In terms of your "stints", a couple of years of attending 1 or 2 meetings a week is hardly taking it seriously........(personal comments removed by JG)
I am not sure where you got the figure of 1 or 2 meetings a week. I did the suggested 90 and 90 on numerous occasions in both my first recovery and second. I was also in a 12 Step treatment centre for a lot of that time where we were forced to attend meetings. (I removed those personal remarks for obvious reasons. I hope being a rational human being you will understand why I do not want this to get too personal. I, too, have people who I have to consider as you do in Step 9. Should this information ever become relevant then I will be happy to disclose it.)
Henry Kissinger was asked in 1999 what organisation had had the greatest positive impact on the world during the 20th Century - he replied without hesitation "Without a doubt Alcoholics Anonymous".
That’s great. George Bush invaded Iraq…’Impact’ is a dubious word too; it is neither negative nor positive. Nazism, arguably, had the greatest impact in Europe in the 20th century…I am sure I can find people who actually believe the Nazi’s were well intentioned…how about Frank Buchman for a start?
“Moral Re-Armament has always been a controversial organization, resulting from its strident anti-Communist positions as well as from Buchman's open admiration of Adolf Hitler.” (Retrieved here.)
Again though, I don’t want to lower the tone of this discussion with ‘cheap’ shots by quoting one man as saying something positive about A.A. is hardly grounds to put an end to doubt. Everything I say here is merely my opinion, but it does not mean it is true for everyone simply because I regard it as true for me. Perhaps my biggest point in all this is just that – we are all different which is why I state clearly on the opening page of this site – “One thing I would ask you however, is that you do not adopt the belief that A.A. is the only way in which to recover and force this down the throats of vulnerable problem drinkers that come to your fellowships in the hope of a solution. Telling them this may cause them harm – this is the fundamental objection I have to A.A.” I even go so far as to suggest that anyone who believes A.A. is working for them should leave the site. My concern is for those people who do not believe there are other ways to recover because A.A. has told them so. I am not interested in converting people, just helping those that are resistant to conversion to A.A.’s ways and still have some belief in their own will’s and thus themselves.
The Psychological and Psychiatric fraternity have suddenly in the last 5 years jumped on 12 step programmes and are introducing their teachings widespread throughout the world and adopting their theories and practices on a huge scale.
The 12 Steps are the only model of recovery that encourage the ‘recovering’ person to wear their recovery like a medal and spread the word in the 12th Step. Those of us who do not choose this route have no 12th Step that tells us to tell everyone else about our experience. Combine this with the fact that many 12 Steppers become involved in the treatment of addiction without having to disclose their affiliation to A.A. might go some way to explain why the majority of people or even ‘experts’ believe in the 12 Steps. (See letters.)
Higher Power? I don't believe in any God of any sort. All I believe is that there is a Higher Power than myself. This takes away the feeling that I am THE centre of the universe. I am most certainly still the centre of my universe - just not the centre of everyone else's as well, which is a way in which Alcoholics think. That again is medically proven - do some research on the characteristics of the illness of alcoholism and read the findings of some of the worlds top medical doctors in the field of addiction and they will confirm this.
Do you truly believe all alcoholics are the same? I don’t. What do you mean by, ‘which is a way in which alcoholics think’? I am keen to know your idea of alcoholic thinking. You once told me that alcohol was not the problem for alcoholics…Do you think everyone needs the 12 Steps? If alcohol is not the problem, then why is tradition 3, ‘The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking’? Perhaps this is because the 12 steps are not a program of recovery from alcoholism but rather a program of religious (or spiritual) conversion. Do you remember why you went to your first meeting of A.A.? Was it not to stop drinking?
My Higher Power most certainly isn't AA. I don't believe this. AA is made up of humans and humans are fallible. I cannot tell you what my Higher Power is in the same way that I can't tell you what infinity is - maybe intellectually I can have a go, but I can't give you an accurate description. All I know is that when I get neurotic or character defective (both recognised psychological conditions - see next point), if I trust that there is a Higher Power which is giving me this stuff to deal with and it won't kill me, then my life is better.
Is that trust a choice? What if I cannot trust in a Higher Power just like I won’t trust people who I do not know anything about? Insisting on faith as a grounds for recovery is not fair, especially if people are then told that they sign their own ‘death warrant’ if they do not follow A.A.’s way and that they will either end up in ‘jails, institutions or morgues.’ Where is the choice? Do it our way or die – sounds like that gun to the head again.
PSYCHOPATHY/SOCIOPATHY - medical study has proven that this is caused by acute trauma in very early childhood (0-2 years) or lack of proper nurturing. On a simple level a psychopathic behaviour pattern is a phobia. If a child sees it's mother stand on a chair and shriek because of a mouse before the age of 2, that child will more likely than not develop an unreasonable psychopathy around mice in the form of a phobia. At the other end of the scale if a child witnesses it's father kill or maim it's mother, it will grow up with an unreasonable psychopathy around violence and will often be pray to unplanned, unexplained extreme acts of violence towards others in adulthood.
CHARACTER DEFECTIVE BEHAVIOUR - Medical research has proven that this is formed between the ages of 2 and 7. It involves blaming everything around ourselves for our predicaments. The worst thing that a mother of a child aged 2 - 7 can do is when the child falls over and cries, is to pick the child up and say "naughty floor! It's hurt you. Let's smack the floor". This teaches the child to blame the floor for the fact that it was careless. A more functional approach would be to say "you silly child. That is what happens when you run around too much. It means that you don't look where you're going and you lose control and fall over and hurt yourself".
NEUROSIS - medical research has proven that neuroses are formed between the ages of 7-12. Good example:- often as a result of a divorce a child will blame itself and become very neurotic because nothing is explained properly, so burden of pain is turned inwards. Neurotics ironically make excellent parents themselves.
The illness of Alcoholism includes all of the above to a greater degree than in the average person.
Obsessive compulsion - Obsessive cleanliness/routines where an individual salutes magpies, checks to see if the door is locked more than once when leaving the house, crosses themselves when they see something bad, masturbates for hours on end, gorges on food, starves etc etc etc - all obsessive behaviour patterns. Alcoholics always display aspects of O.C.
Mania/manic depression - Singing the same tune over and over and over again and again and again - often a tune that has child-hood significance, high IQ, extreme energy/adrenaline bursts, over active sweat glands etc etc etc etc - Alcoholics always display aspects of Mania/M.D.
None of the above medical/psychological symptoms are made up by me. These are all recognised by medical trained experts as making up the illness of alcoholism. The 12 Step programme is cleverly constructed to deal with these all one-by-one although a criticism is that in the actual steps psychopathic behavioural traits and neuroses are not covered although they are looked at in detail within the pages of the Big Book.
That is all very well but are you saying that people who suffer these traits without being alcoholics have to settle for substandard or harder ways in which to deal with these issues as they have not been introduced to the 12 Steps? All humans have these traits to a greater or lesser extent regardless of whether they are ‘well’ or not. You believe we are ‘alcoholics’ before we even pick up a drink, don’t you? That is probably because A.A. is not about alcoholism but about conversion to Bill Wilson’s principles. In Bill Wilson’s opinion you don’t even need to drink to need the 12 Steps, you only need to know an alcoholic – hence CODA and ALANON. I wonder how many of those experts you use to back up your arguments really believe in the notion of powerlessness.
I could go on - I'm not going to bother. I totally respect your views on why you wish to remove yourself from AA. I could argue that this could be all part of the general self-destructive behaviour that you've demonstrated through pouring vodka down your throat/sticking needles in your arm, but having read your thoughts, I believe this would be futile.
You don’t respect my views otherwise you would not have reduced them to the mad rants. I have drunk dangerously in the past, although not prior to A.A. membership, and yes I have stuck a needle in my arm but I CHOOSE not to do these things today. Not because of God, or A.A. but because I am a responsible adult that acknowledges this behaviour is detrimental to my long term happiness. It is a curious thing about A.A. that really intrigues me – it is one of few organisations that criticise people for the very reasons it believes they should be members. Interesting…
I'd like to remain your friend, I'm not interested in brain-washing you in anyway, and if we remain friends, I don't believe there's anything to be gained from further debate - we should simply agree to disagree and carry on with our lives. I will respect your view if you respect mine.
I respect you have a right to your view but I do not respect your view. To say anything else would be a lie. I respect you as a person. However, suggesting we agree to disagree is just another way of silencing me in my opinion. I would prefer to have a healthy and rational debate that is both open and based on reality not faith. You cannot force anyone to believe in anything which is what faith is. Telling someone they will end up in a ‘jail, institution or morgue’ if they do not follow the 12 Steps is effectively forcing a belief on someone using fear tactics. Debate is healthy, it is by debating that we reach RATIONAL conclusions.
Look after yourself and see you sometime soon I hope.
You too, and I look forward to hearing from you soon.
PS. Go out and by Adult Children of Alcoholics by Janet Woititz- I've in fact got far more out of this book/meetings than I have the Big Book/AA!! ACA is a growing fellowship that has a programme that isn't based on the classical 12 Step programme.
Am hearing a lot from people who have been involved in both of these but as I have no practical experience of them as yet, I cannot comment. Will keep you posted.
RESPONSE:
Hi James,
I can't see the point of posting personal emails up in a public environment.
I can understand your need to know why this is so important to me and many others: A.A. provides fellowship, which you mentioned in your last letter and that is one of it’s greatest strengths, but for those of us that have chosen not to follow A.A.’s path, finding that fellowship is not so easy. I get a lot of messages from people who feel totally alone having decided that they cannot believe in a Power Greater than themselves; they are essentially stuck between a rock and a hard place. They feel isolated in A.A. and isolated by leaving A.A. Imagine someone who has ‘faked it to make it,’ deciding they want to leave A.A. having told everyone in and outside the rooms he or she needs A.A. It is a very hard process and many of those people have to admit they have been wrong again after doing a Step Nine, but that record wears a little thin especially to those who are not ‘in the rooms’ themselves. The response from most people is ‘here we go again, he must be in denial – he wants to drink himself to death.’ Getting my own friends and family to take me seriously required a 10,000 word letter to be written backed up by research compiled over a 3 month period. How can you explain why you want to leave A.A. in a sentence? Perhaps one could say A.A. is a sentence! JOKE! (I will be writing about the barriers to exit in A.A. soon.) Sites like mine help to alleviate those feelings of loneliness and any healthy debate should be made public so these people can hear what is being said and not feel mad for thinking these things. If people could actually share their doubts in meetings without being told they are murderers for instilling these doubts in the newcomer that would be better. I know you share honestly in the meetings but you are a strong character unlike a desperate drunk trying to quit drinking who has nothing but feelings of shame and fear. Think about that for a moment. Most people who have doubts about A.A. and air them are made to feel so uncomfortable that they either tow the line or leave. A.A. is all over the web, all over the press, but alternatives are rarely promoted. (This is despite the 11th tradition that states A.A.s ‘public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion’. A quick look at step 12 reveals that it is every A.A. member’s duty to ‘carry this message to alcoholics.’ Many of those individuals have created websites on the Internet, which I regard as a public form of promotion. A.A has also released television commercials in the US) Let us have our forum too. Who knows, if we are allowed to tell everyone the truth then your reasons for choosing A.A.s way because it is the easiest way not to isolate might prove not to be true. Your anonymity is maintained and I have no desire to disclose it and I NEVER will for whatever reason. After all I am also giving you the chance to be heard.
As far as agreeing to disagree, this is the healthiest way forward in terms of our relationship. I think one way, you think the other. If perhaps George Bush (whom you mention in your response), was able to think this way, innocent people would not at this very moment in time be experiencing slaughter on a wide scale around the world - people both from the western and eastern hemispheres.
I concur (always reminds me of that film, ‘Catch Me If You Can’), but we are not leaders of military super powers. I agree to disagree with you but I also respect you enough as a person, and a friend, to take the risk of telling you how I feel and think on these issues. I also know unlike many members of A.A. you are willing to take the time to discuss these things with me. Perhaps if my sponsor had been the same, or the program actually encouraged this, I would still be a member of A.A. Instead A.A.’s idea of honesty and the truth is the Big Book and the 12 Steps, and as such it labels anyone who questions them as ‘constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.’
Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. (A.A. Big Book)
I'm surprised that you have taken this all as a personal attack on you. It was not intended to be. I agree with you that Bill Wilson was at times acutely lunatic. I also agree that many of the writings within the Big Book and the 12 X 12 are outdated and singular in their outlook on the illness. My understanding is that Bill W. experimented widely with LSD and was good friends with Timothy Leary, who has been widely discredited as completely "off his rocker".
I took the ‘mad rants’ comment personally but I was never annoyed by anything you said. I was grateful that you had taken the time to respond. Why do you mention Timothy Leary, anything to do with his quote at the start of my Confession Session video? Illness? I am not convinced it is an illness. Show me where the BMC(British Medical Council) or AMA (American Medical Association) endorse alcoholism as being an illness. An inability to take responsibility for our choices (and lives) and the consequences of those choices, is the only ‘deluded’ form of thinking I can see in the 12 steps that can reduce the ‘alcoholic’ to being deemed ill. I was told I had an illness when I was 19 and I loved that idea, and I wish I still did because then I could absolve myself of all responsibility for my actions but the truth is I do not have an illness. I chose to drink copious amounts because I imagined it to be fun – I was driven by pleasure. Oh ok, I suppose if someone tells me I have an illness then I am responsible because I am now aware of the consequences but that does not wash. If you tell someone to drink is to die because they are powerless, that can only be regarded as fair if you could prove it. I took drugs and I drank dangerously – I was wrong to do those things and I knew that at the time but I chose to do so because the anticipated pleasure of taking those drugs outweighed the negative consequences of taking them – a choice.
Having known you a short time, I find you to be intelligent and interesting and my belief is that AA or any 12-Step programme needs people like you as does any society. Questioning the status quo is a very important part of any developed culture.
This is the most interesting point you make so far. What would be the point in me being a member of A.A. and questioning it? How do you think I, or indeed we, would go about implementing these changes? It cannot happen. A.A. claims it is run by it’s members but how could we express our need for change within the fellowship to all those members when there are no mailing lists or other ways to show them our views? Besides A.A. is wrong about Step One and there is no way they will ever accept that. I disagree with too much of A.A. After all, I did not come to A.A. to change it; I came to A.A. to deal with my addiction and lead a happier life. What do you think we could really change in A.A.? You are clear on those things you disagree with on my site, what do you agree with? Do you go to A.A. meetings and spend your time there telling them what annoys you about A.A. or do you tell them all what you agree with? Perhaps you could afford us the same privilege.
After 9/11 which I believe was a terrible atrocity, there was a rock concert at Madison Square Gardens to raise money for the families of the fireman who were killed. In between each act that appeared there were "speeches" from various US celebrities. The general tone was one of "let's go get us some rag-heads and camel-jockeys". Towards the end of the show Richard Gere's turn came round. He stood at the lectern and more or less said that instead of talking of more bombing and maiming, the US should perhaps be looking inwards instead of outwards and asking the question "Why did they want to do this to us? What have we done to them that angers them so?". He was of course boo-ed and bottled off the stage. This is a clear illustration of forgiveness. In his case, Buddhist writings have taught him how to forgive. I am not a Buddhist.
Again I agree with you. Why do you think I am doing what I am doing with this site and my videos? Why do I feel the need to expose the truth about A.A.? When you call me ‘mad’ for highlighting these things, is that not an ‘intellectual’ way of booing me? I am not saying I should be regarded as a terrorist, but all I am doing is exercising my right to express my views. (Please accept you were wrong to call them ‘mad’ rants and once you have done that I will refrain from referring to those comments again.)
It is only through working a 12 Step programme that I have found peace on these issues. Don't ask me how or why. I can't explain it. It has worked for me and that is all I need to know. My life and outlook on life are very different indeed - from a deep dark hole I have been brought to the sunlight of the most beautiful of summer days. That doesn't mean that I still don't feel pain around the issues that tormented me for years.....they play a much lesser role in my life and more importantly I have been able to address some of the puzzling patterns which they set up for me in adult-life.
I have tried to work this program and I never felt such release. I am glad that you have found such peace, but to say I have or believe I ever will, using the 12 Steps would be untrue.
So for me, and for me only I am doing the right thing in attending AA meetings.
I am happy for you in this respect but all I am asking is that you do not force other people to believe your way is the only way, or that being open-minded to another way is madness.
I don't doubt that you feel deeply about much that you write against AA and it's way of working. Some of it I agree with. Some of it I don't. When you encourage intelligent debate though, I will debate. I will tell you my point of view. It is a point of view that I hold, and therefore will not change. It is an individual point of view. It does not speak for AA or anyone else at all. By agreeing to disagree, we can maintain our friendship whilst at the same time each having a perspective that is at opposite ends of the spectrum. What is so wrong with that?I will change my point of view if anyone or any facts can show me otherwise. What I refuse to do is pretend I agree with something I do not. I do hope we can remain friends, and I personally believe if A.A. has any desire to adapt and evolve, then people like me are the best friends they can have. I do not think it is possible for A.A. to change with it’s current beliefs due to it’s dogma. The likes of you who are members of A.A. engaging with people like me are the best family A.A. can have because at least you are open-minded enough to listen to A.A. outsiders and that might be the catalyst A.A. needs to at the very least become less dangerous. I am not sure I would want to remove A.A., but if A.A. could accept that it is not the only way in which to recover and not sentence those people who turn their backs on A.A. to death, I could accept it as an alternative treatment for rock bottom alcoholics. Do you really believe I could be a member of A.A. and express these things? Tradition 5 destroys any chance of that - Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
Response:
Hi James,
Thanks for your email. I do apologise for referring to your views as "mad rants". It was wrong of me to describe them as such. I think you write very intelligently and lucidly and I do believe that there is room for you in AA with your contrary views. I know a lot of people who attend AA who would agree with you on a number of points too.
Thank you for the compliments, but above all for the apology. I will not mention those comments anymore as promised. The jury is still out on whether there is a place for me within AA. I feel very uncomfortable at meetings because I feel discouraged to share my real thoughts with the group. ‘Experience, strength and hope’ is not really what sharing is about for the majority of AAs. I have always thought it would be interesting to do a chair and share my true experience, strength and hope. I believe in myself, my will, and to share to that effect would be in direct contradiction with Step 1, Step 2 and Step 3. Like all humans, doing what I want has caused some negative consequences, but it has also produced positive ones. Even if I was to follow AA’s way, that too would be a choice. I think the first three steps are cleverly constructed, but when looked at with reason, they fall apart. That said, if you have the required faith to believe in a power greater than yourself, then perhaps they can work. However, that is not my experience, so I cannot pretend otherwise. As I keep saying, it is not my intention to convert anyone to my way of thinking; it is my intention to express my views so those of us who do not believe in either a higher power or the steps do not have the added pain of feeling alone. I honestly cannot ever remember anyone sharing anything that negative in a meeting other than those under the influence – but that only plays into the hands of AA – look what happens when you doubt the program; you drink. I want to feel communion, and accepted by the groups I attend but not at the cost of my individuality. I have bitten my lip all my life – leaving AA and thinking about what I truly want from life has been one of the most beneficial things I have ever done in terms of building my own self-esteem.
There is a lot I do not agree with. I know someone who is 14 years "sober" and still sleeps with women who are in their first few meetings and don't know how to say no. "Sober" is in quotations for a reason and "sleeps" is hardly what he does with the women. He refers to it as "fucking some recovery into them". My feeling is that he simply stopped drinking and not looked at his behaviour one bit replacing alcohol addiction with sex addiction/rape. I truly believe he should be prosecuted for rape, and have shared this with him. He sees it in another way. I have told him that if a friend of mine is subjected to any of his "amorous advances" I will not be responsible for my actions.
I considered removing this section because it is so shocking and in the interests of being fair, I am going to switch sides for a moment and defend AA briefly. You do not state how this is rape? I agree what he has done is wrong, but that does not mean it is rape. If the women are consenting then it cannot be called rape in the eyes of the law. I hate what he has done, but I also want to remain fair and open-minded despite the fact agreeing with you would only bolster my arguments with regards to AA’s failure to ensure the safety of newcomers. That phrase, ‘fucking some sobriety into them’ is downright disgusting and made me feel sick when I read it. It fires me up with an even greater passion to expose this, but without knowing all the details, I cannot agree that this man is guilty of rape. However, most importantly, this is one man’s behaviour. I want to debate the principles of the program, not the personalities involved, especially ones I have no experience of. I hope you can understand why I do not want to bring individuals into this unless they choose to make their views known. If you want to debate this further, perhaps you could explain why this is rape? It is my view that AA views the newcomer as weak and powerless – are you suggesting these women have lost their wills to such an extent they cannot say ‘no’? I agree they are more prone to such advances, but to say they can’t stop them is a little demeaning to those women – it takes all their power away. As I said, I am absolutely not condoning this man’s behaviour, but we have to separate the act of rape from taking advantage and sexual manipulation. Neither is right.
Group consciences around the world are ways in getting things changed within AA. On the subject of rape committed by members, a directive for Group Conscience meetings was sent aroound several years ago. It was said that a number of women were being subjected to unwanted sexual advances - the word rape was not used but implied. I argued vehemently in 3 groups that I attended, that it was up to group members to find out the men that were committing these atrocities and as in any other society (AA being a mini-society of it's own like a company, institution or organisation), such men should be expelled and treated with the full force of the law. It was not adopted as a policy, something I strongly disagreed with and continue to do so.
You state that “Group consciences around the world are ways in getting things changed within AA.,” but then go on to admit that “It was not adopted as a policy, something I strongly disagreed with and continue to do so.” This is my point – nothing really changes about the principles of the program. Maybe AA likes to be seen as dealing with individuals or the behaviour of certain members, but in truth AA is unable to challenge itself and it’s dogma. The assumption is that Bill Wilson’s Steps and Traditions and teachings are infallible. The section of the Big Book he wrote has never been edited and it never will be. Out of interest can you tell me of any changes AA has implemented in recent years? I think AA might argue that sexual manipulation or even rape is an outside issue and in keeping with tradition 10, it does not want to be drawn into public controversy. (10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.) Bill Wilson clearly included this to protect the group but at the cost of the individual, just like many of the other traditions. Can you see how dangerous this is now, especially for those women? I am interested in your view that these men should be expelled – how would you go about ensuring they did not just go to other meetings and prey on the women there? Plus, how could you justify that to do so would be following the word of tradition 3? (3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.) You might be surprised to learn that there is evidence to show that AA’s mighty guru, Bill Wilson, was guilty of these precise practices. He practically invented the 13th step. Look here.
I do not agree with the terms "newcomer" and "oldtimer". These are cultish terms and imply hierarchy in an organisation that does not supposedly have one.
Again, I ask you what you are doing to ensure your voice is heard? I would like to hear you share all this in a meeting. Would you?
I often sit in meetings and feel that people are spouting programme stuff. Often I know these people and know that they are in fact being dishonest and just following the crowd in what they say so that they fit in. I hate this aspect of it.
The hypocrisy is what made me leave but the clever ‘old-timers’ accused me of taking everyone else’s inventory. I am afraid that I need to take people’s inventory if I am also going to take their advice – to do anything else would be foolish. Am I supposed to accept people on the grounds that they go to meetings and say they are alcoholics who have been saved by the 12 Steps? I know you don’t think that, but that phrase ‘taking someone else’s’ inventory is dangerous. Read the Big Book – Bill Wilson tells us what our traits are and who we are. Is that not taking someone else’s inventory, or is he allowed to because he uses the term ‘we’? It is a clever propaganda trick and I don’t like it. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME. At the same time, I might be inclined to silence you for taking the sexual predators inventories, but I don’t think like that anymore. I think my point is clear on that one.
I've already stated that the extreme cult end I totally disagree with - Joys of Recovery and Vision For You meetings. Thankfully, these do not exist outside of London and I can choose not to attend those meetings or associate with any of their members.
Perhaps you should bring this to the attention of the group conscience meetings, but again you will run into trouble because of the Traditions. Tradition 4 (4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.) makes these groups effectively untouchable unless you can argue they are affecting AA as a whole, but considering the knee-jerk reaction of most AA members to any criticism of AA is to deny it, I don’t hold out much hope for change. I imagine those conscience meetings are filled with ‘oldtimers’ who don’t want to see things changed anyway because if it ‘worked for me, it should work for them.’
I do not agree with the way AA is now running tv and other media ad campaigns. This goes against the traditions. Attraction rather than promotion.
Well if they are willing to break that tradition there is at least some hope – maybe they will start breaking all the other traditions that contribute to the war on self.
I do not believe in agressive 12-Stepping. I believe that when people are ready, like me and others they will find AA of their own accord.
I quite enjoyed being a salesman to the program, but it is wrong. Can you share some examples of what you would regard as aggressive 12th stepping? How about a court or a treatment centre forcing AA attendance? I wish AA would tell the courts to stop sending people to them, but secretly, I am sure AA loves this because it helps their numbers grow. That is what I would call stealth, or passive, AA 12th stepping. It can see how wrong this is, but yet chooses to do nothing about it.
I do not believe any meeting should allow smoking. It is antisocial for non-smokers and smoking additionally is known to suppress feelings. I believe I should go to meetings to centre myself, live in the moment and feel exactly how I feel at that particular time.
I agree with the smoking part, but seeing as I have chosen not to attend meetings at the moment, you will understand that I cannot agree with the latter.
I do not agree with sponsors who tell the people they sponsor that they must do anything. (I will not use the word sponsee - it is not a word that exists in the English language and is again cultish). Any sponsor who makes a person that they sponsor do anything has control issues. All sponsors should suggest and make suggestions only around the contents of the programme. As a sponsor myself, I feel it is my job to only advise on the programme in the way that I did it to relieve me of alcohol and drugs and stop my addiction to both. I do not believe that sponsors should advise on any other life issues whatsoever as they are not qualified to do so. I have seen sponsors make the people they sponsor go and do lunatic things like knock on the doors of the houses that they robbed whilst drunk/under the influence of drugs to say sorry during amends. This resulted in one of my friends drinking/drug-using again and dieing.
Again, what protections are in place to ensure this does not happen? If you are ‘sick’ when you come to the rooms as AA believes, how can one make a reasonable judgment for what will make a good sponsor? This task is made even harder by AA encouraging us not to take other people’s inventories.
I do not believe amends should be about saying sorry at all. Sorry is what I was very good at saying when I as a drunk and had upset people to gain favour with them. it should be more about amending behaviour and changing the way we deal with life and people showing tolerance, compassion, love, understanding, empathy instead of selfishness, which in my experience most people who are using addicts do.
Absolutely, not to mention the fact that many of the people in a step 8 probably never want to see us again – they should be left alone, not confronted with the burden of our guilt.
I do not believe people should have to pray. It should be a choice and those who do so should not be made to do it on their knees.
Yes – if you read about my experience on the site I ask how anyone can pray to anything other than some kind of religious God.
I do not believe Step 4 is about self-flagellation. It is simply an inventory of what has hurt us, how we have hurt, and where our psychology is twisted because of a lack of childhood nurturing. This then gives us a psychological map of ourselves from which we can navigate change, although this should not be compulsory. It is about taking responsibility for our actions today and forgiving those for wrongdoings of the past to ensure that we have a better future.
Step 4 may very well be useful in highlighting our ‘character defects’ but I think my greatest weakness is my inability to see my strengths. How can a step 4 do anything other than perpetuate that problem? Low self-esteem is something the majority of people in the rooms suffer from; I fail to see how the steps can bolster this to a satisfactory level. After all if they could, then people would be able to graduate from the program and lead healthy lives that are not dependent on AA or the Steps. If you work the steps they make damn sure you need them – rather like an addiction. Step 10 is the most obvious example of this.
I think that many character "defects" are also assets. Most psychologists say that anger energy can be challenged in an extremely positive way to produce success. It is no coincidence that most leaders in business or society come from deeply dysfunctional backgrounds but are able to function extremely well. There are many other examples.
Agreed as far as the ‘defects’ go, but I keep hearing that world ‘dysfunctional’ – is anyone totally functional? Or family for that matter? How much less than completely functional would one have to be to be regarded as ‘dysfunctional’? Would you place an AA group into the ‘dysfunctional’ bracket? Think about that question because it is important.
I do not believe meditation should be about lying down or crossing ones legs and saying Om! A meditative state can be achieved when walking down a street, driving a car, reading a book. Meditation to me is simply bringing myself into the now and noticing what is around me now - sights, sounds, smells. It means not thinking about the past or the future - being in the moment.
I do not believe that members of AA should be running around constantly trying to help others. I do believe all human beings should help others less fortunate than themselves, but when it becomes the single driving force in ones life, then we are acting in a very un-natural and dysfunctional way if all they are doing is existing for others.
In the same vain I do not believe that we should be constantly chasing each other and making people go to meetings and not drink/"follow the programme". Everyone over the age of 18 is an adult and therefore it is up to themselves to work out what to do with their own life. Life has actions and consequences. It is up to the individual to work out and spiritually grow.
Spiritual is an over-used word in any 12 Step programme. To me "spiritual" simply means being in touch with my spirit and communicating that. If I mean yes, say yes not no. If I like blue then don't wear pink, wear blue. Be true to the spirit of my soul and act accordingly. Don't compromise, for anyone or anything if it goes against my own value system which is strong.
I could go on and on and on. There is a lot about AA with which I do not agree. I'm very lucky in that I have a sponsor who is an adult and just lets me get on with life, make mistakes and learn. That said, I've tried staying sober on my own and I've tried it through attending AA and the latter is considerably easier - not from an addiction point of view but from a mental point of view.
I have to differ with you on the illness aspect of Alcoholism. I base this on having worked in medical publishing for over 10 years, and having been involved in a number of publications on Alcoholism/addiction which have worldwide respect.
Alcoholism is quite simply addiction. Addiction is a mental disease. I also challenge that the BMC doesn't see it as that. The BMA does as do most medical governing bodies around the world. All companies now do, because they don't dismiss addicts - they treat them. They base their corporate rules on Company/Employment Law which dictates that addiction is an illness. If it's looked up in the Oxford Companion to the Mind, widely regarded as one of the most respected and independent of medical books, it states that alcoholism is an addiction and addiction is an illness of the mind brought about by both genetic defect and causal psychology. I don't agree that people are 100% born alcoholics, and at that same time I do not believe that it is entirely brought about by causal psychology. It is a combination of the two which brings about a psychological/neurological illness of addiction. Any alcoholic in any room is also addicted to sex, love, food etc etc etc in fact anything that brings about a chemical dopamine reaction in the brain - if they tell you opposite they are lying. I believe most of the human race are addicts, always pleasure-seeking - it is just that some of us are unable to stop once we ge the pleasure reaction. We are the hardcore addicts who often end up recking our lives.
Yes, I should have said AA’s definition of alcoholism being a spiritual malady – no self-respecting organisation like the BMC or AMA has ever endorsed Bill Wilson’s real definition of the alcoholic. AA describes this as a three fold illness – mental, physical and spiritual. Organisations might believe with either the mental or the physical, but not all three. That is what I meant; apologies for the confusion.
I want to leave you with a quote from chapter 5 in the Big Book –
Resentment is the "number one" offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically. In dealing with resentments, we set them on paper. We listed people, institutions or principle with who we were angry. We asked ourselves why we were angry. In most cases it was found that our self-esteem, our pocketbooks, our ambitions, our personal relationships, (including sex) were hurt or threatened. So we were sore. We were "burned up." On our grudge list we set opposite each name our injuries.
It covers a lot of what is discussed in this letter. (Love the use of the word ‘grudge’ – Bill W. was a shrewd cookie!)
Response
Thanks for your response.
I classify it as rape because I know a female member of AA who was raped by this character. As he forced himself on her, she kept saying no. He raped her. This is quite standard with rape victims. She didn't report it to the police. this is also standard. (text removed by JG) The story of my friend is totally consistent with that of a rape victim. I refer to the character as a rapist because he is.
I think it would be futile to continue to discuss this matter. He may well be guilty of rape but I also believe in someone’s right to defend any accusations in a court of law. Until any allegation has been brought to the attention of the authorities this process cannot take place. Have you read ‘To Kill A Mockingbird’? There are lessons to be learned by it. I am not saying he is not guilty, but he has a right to defend such allegations.
We have to agree to disagree with Higher Power. I do not believe I am the highest power in the universe, flat. Therefore I believe there is a higher power than myself.
I do not believe I am the highest power in the universe but I believe in my will and I choose not to hand that over to something that I have no ‘conscious contact’ with. To be able to hand my will and my life over to this power I would have to know what his/her/it’s will is for me. I quite simply do not believe that he/she/it micro manages my life and spends a whole lot of time concerned with my will. If anything, I believe it may have put me on this planet and given me a brain and my own will so that I could enjoy the process of learning and growing and with that reach my own truth. Again though, I cannot state that as fact because I quite simply have no idea what it’s will is for me, or for that matter, anyone else.
I agree with you about Group Consciences. They change little although it is a democratic process. A vote is taken on issues. I was outvoted. Each group then reports it's vote regionally and it is reported nationally and then internationally. The democratic vote is taken. Hence AA has decided to spend money on parliamentary lobbying recently as a result of putting it to Group Conscience.
How is the vote taken in a group conscience meeting? Is it an anonymous vote? That may sound like a stupid question considering this is an anonymous society, but the reality is, within meetings reputations are formed and opinions are shaped of one another. My point is that there will always be certain pressures within group conscience meetings that are most likely to be felt by those who want to challenge the status quo. Of course this is true in most democratic societies, but I feel this pressure is particularly strong within AA. AA subtlety teaches its members to pay lip service to the program and this can have the effect that people begin to actually believe what they are saying – slogan alert, ‘Fake it to make it!’ or how about, ‘Don’t quit before the miracle.’ (I would like to discuss this point with you more because if I believed my views had a chance of not only being heard within AA, but actually considered, then I may well consider going to a few group conscience meetings. Out of curiosity, these are obviously closed meetings? They would have to be.)
I know Bill W. was mad. Remember this is not SCA or SAA we are talking about. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" In the other two fellowships, sexual infidelity is covered. Bill W. desired to stop drinking. He did this. I still agree with you that he was mad, and have shared this openly in meetings. Contrary to what you think I have heard a lot of other people share the same - not just one or two....dozens. Generally people who are recovering properly and not just paying lip service like you and I.
I assume you are talking about ‘acting out’ on our feelings? I am not sure I buy this whole purity thing. Having sex is a primal desire that has served evolution well thus far. I did not go to AA to become holier than thou. If a man or a woman wants to indulge in sexual infidelity, who am I to tell them not to? I personally wouldn’t because I have learned from my mistakes, but I am grateful for having a chance to learn. I do not want to be told everything and live life in a haze where everything I do is right. I’d die of utter boredom. All I do today is try not to do the things that I know are wrong. If I suffer from a little ignorance from time to time, so be it. After all, ‘Ignorance is bliss.’ Perhaps a lot of 12 steppers know too much about life, and I think the danger of that is that it begins to lose its charm. A revelation every now and then about ourselves, good or bad, is one of the most exciting parts of life in my opinion. It is all the more exciting, and meaningful, when one finds this out for oneself rather than being told it. This mode of living also results in an individual knowing the truth of their experience, rather than having to have faith in, or believing, in a process. I am sure I was an alien to many of my friends outside of AA when I was attending regular meetings because I talked another language. I do not want to be better than anyone, or worse than anyone – where is the communion in any feeling like that? I want to be equal, at least, on a moral level to the majority of the people I surround myself with. Feelings of superiority or inferiority have the same ultimate conclusion – a sense of isolation.
Newcomer and Oldtimer. I regularly share openly in meetings that I believe this is cultish. I did so as secretary of a meeting and was told off by someone who was 27 years sober. Furthermore, I do not practice the AA Birthday nonsense. It is not a race. My sponsor tells me it is a day at a time that we remain sober. This is how I run my sobriety. I can tell you the month I had my last drink and the month I had my last drug. I do not celebrate anniversaries and collect key rings or coins or whatever. I have one birthday each year. it is the anniversary of the day that I was born. I have shared this many times in meetings - most recently as Secretary of a meeting where again I was told off by someone who had beensober more than 20 years. I will continue to share like this.
This point annoyed me a little if I am honest. (I don’t mind being annoyed at all as I use it as a method to drive me.) It reminds me of the times I have been in a ‘dysfunctional’ set up and everyone is willing to look at all the minor issues but only because it serves as a vehicle to ignore the major one. Have you even heard me when I have stated my main objection to AA? If you do not know what it is yet, go to the entrance page of this site and read the letter. Sharing about anniversaries and the use of a couple of words is hardly sharing your real issues with AA. Do you agree that AA is not the only way in which to recover from alcoholism? I want to take that one step further, do you think it may be possible that AA is not the best form of recovery for all people? Or is AA a one size fits all solution? I would be grateful if you would share the answer to those questions in the next meeting you attend. I don’t mean to come across overly angry, because at least you don’t pay lip service to all of AA’s dogma, but sharing on these comparatively minor issues does nothing other than secure your position as a ‘free thinker’ within AA. I mean that in the nicest possible way. Do AA a favour and highlight its one really serious issue that might potentially lead to not only the deaths of many alcoholics prematurely, but I have a feeling it might one day see AA shrink dramatically. It is this belief that reduces AA to cultish because it has the desired effect of creating a huge barrier to exit – a significant basis for determining whether an organisation is a cult or not. Despite the title of my Confession Session videos, and my belief that AA falls into the bracket of being a cult, my mind is still very much open on this. Perhaps it is this fact that helps the 5% of those who remain sober in AA to succeed in their desire. Being in a cult is very much like being in the grips of an addiction or alcoholism.
I agree with you on inventory taking. Someone with longer sobriety than you telling you that you are taking someone's inventory is in fact taking your inventory instead. Rather than get upset, I piss these characters off by smiling, shaking their hands and thanking them graciously for their advice. They tend to leave me alone then. I take no unsolicited advice in the rooms from anyone. I choose with whom I associate VERY carefully. I take inventory and I am careful about what I share with whom. There are a large number of untreated lunatics in the rooms. I watch out for these but do not show them scorn - it is not my place to do so. I just choose not to associate with them. As AA is a cross-section of society, there are many people in society at large with whom I would not wish to have anything to do with. AA is the same. That does not mean I have to be rude or intolerant of them - I just don't have to place them in any position of importance in my life.
A couple of good points. That is an interesting point as well about the untreated lunatics. People in AA harp on about how their whole lives they have suffered from untreated alcoholism, but what about those people who are in AA because they have been misdiagnosed (perhaps in a 12th step call) as alcoholics, when in fact they may be suffering from some other disorder that requires psychiatric (thus needs to be treated with mind-altering chemicals) treatment? That is so dangerous. I have heard people in meetings advising others to stop taking medication because they are not ‘sober’ if they take any mind-altering chemical. Do you think that a doctor who went to university and medical school for years, took exams, and learned theory based on years of research is less qualified to treat his patients than say a sponsor or a member of AA? I will support the Big Book here because I know Bill Wilson showed his respect for the medical profession by suggesting we all work along side them, but sadly, one of his more sensible messages is continually ignored in meetings.
I regularly advise people against Joys and Vision meetings. I have regularly done this openly in sharing as well as in Group Consciences. I used to attend Vision meetings and share how awful life was knowing that they'd tell me to shut up so I could then make a scene and argue with them. I have 4 friends within AA who used to do this with me. I don't need to expel energy doing this anymore - I just make it quite clear very openly that I do not think that Joys or Vision have a place in AA. Ask around openly - I am known for it. I recently shared back to a Vision Chair (they can easily be spotted because they all share the same thing), that I enjoyed his Chair but would have got more enjoyment out of it if perhaps he had mixed his Vision meetings with mainstream AA meetings. He ignored me. Fine. I still put my point across.
See my point above about sharing AA’s major problem within AA. I do respect you for doing this however. (The fact you are ‘known for it’ reinforces my belief that anonymity within AA is an ideal that cannot really be achieved – I only say this with regards to group conscience votes. See point above.)
No-one like change. No-one at all. I'll rephrase that. Very few people like change. I love change. I am always a champion of change in any working environment. A long list of bosses when facing change have always brought me in and put it logically to me. If it is logical change I get behind it and make their jobs easier by selling it to the rest of the team/company. My current job is going to change the whole ethos and way of doing things within a large, well known**** (edited by JG) company. It's not surprising that those who have been going to AA for a long time don't like change - most people on the planet don't.
I don’t really mind change. I change everyday – physically and emotionally. I see change as an opportunity for growth. Some change is scary and takes time to adapt to, but even that process of adaptation is revealing, and thus exciting to me. As for ‘most people on the planet’ not liking change, I’ll keep an open-mind on that one; I have not met most people on the planet so I cannot comment. There is only one life I have witnessed in its entirety and that is my own.
Courts enforcing AA is VERY aggressive 12-Stepping and should not be tolerated. Anything that goes beyond telling someone where an AA meeting is if they ask and only if they ask is aggressive 12-Stepping. AA should work on attraction rather than promotion. When people want it and need it they find it. Simple as that. I think meeting people for their first meetings and taking them there is aggressive 12-Stepping. An individual should simply take themselves to a meeting after asking someone where to go in my humble opinion. It should remain like that period.
All extremely helpful suggestions that I hope you bring to AA’s attention.
Your second part about feeling - I believe I should take time out every day whether or not it's in a meeting to live in the moment and experience what it going on around me. I have done this since a child. It is not something AA has instiled in me. I already had it. I just used AA rooms a couple of times a week as this place to centre.
Again, good points and I agree with them too. It works for me as well, but I can’t comment on whether they will work for other people simply because they work for us.
There are no protections around good/bad sponsors. There are no protections around good/bad jobs or neighbourhoods or cars or anything in life. If someone has a "bad" sponsor that they do not agree with then they should change. I'm on my 4th although the first 3 were in my very early days in AA (first 3 months).
I disagree. There are consumer reviews all over the net, and in magazines for cars and other things that might fall into the category of ‘anything in life.’ You can always go to a neighbourhood and get a feel for it yourself or ask around. I think it would be hard to find an honest opinion of anyone in the rooms coming from another member. ‘Taking inventories’ and ‘being judgmental’ as well as the Yellow Card make this very hard. As for jobs I believe the interview process allows for some form of scrutiny as to whether any job might be suitable for an individual. Or at the very least people can do research into the businesses or organisation they might want to work for. I just feel there should be more emphasis in both literature and the rooms on the issue of sponsorship. A sponsor can wield so much influence over someone’s life that to take the decision lightly, often in desperation at a time when someone is susceptible to conversion to someone else’s belief, is dangerous. I have to admit that I have heard people share about sponsors in the rooms but I mostly got a sense that it was fuelled by motivations of defaming the sponsor involved rather than highlighting any possible dangers in the program. Again, I could be wrong.
I agree with your comments in Step 8. Most people's Step 9 lists have around 2 or 3 people listed. Normally close family members. It should not go beyond this. I added financial institutions who I had absconded from because i wanted to sort that area of my life out and I took an ex-landlord a sofa-bed and a saucepan to replace the ones I had stolen from him. The latter were my decision as I wanted to clear up my financials as well as feeling bad for screwing a perfectly decent and caring landlord.
Is there any parity in the rooms as to how one should go about ‘completing’ a Step Nine? I am not sure about the notion of ‘direct amends’. I’d call a lot of it, ‘How To Win BACK Friends and Influence People.’ JOKE! But there is some truth in that. (This is another part of the program I believe we should discuss more. Step 8 and 9 are two of the Steps that initially did not bother me when I began my research, but I am beginning to see some of the real and present dangers intertwined in their message.)
In terms of praying, throughout history there are examples of tribes/races praying to rocks/trees/whatever. We can pray to anything we want if we want to. I respect if you don't want to.
Pray defined: ‘To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship’ (retrieved here). Thank you for pointing this out to me. I will have to amend my site accordingly. I never knew that. But I must add I am not sure what the motivation would be to pray to an object, maybe for one in terms of acquiring it! (JOKE) I choose not to pray as I do not worship any objects, except in moments of desperation when the miniscule amount of faith I have in prayer acts as a last resort and as something to do when there is nothing else practical that can be done. It does not mean I believe in God but being open minded I accept that my beliefs maybe wrong, but they are nonetheless mine so they are my responsibility.
A good Sponsor (there are many) will not dwell on defects in Step 4 & 5. My inventory was far morepositive than negative. However, I did need to take responsibility for resentment I was feeling 20 years after an event and learn to forgive and forget.
So your step five must have taken less than half the time to read compared to your step four. Step five makes it very clear that we ‘Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.’ Do any of the steps actually, really and honestly, encourage the harnessing of our strengths? I don’t think so because it is not about OUR strengths, it is about our Higher Power’s POWER; isn’t it? I wish step Ten told us to admit our ‘rights’ too. I know we can choose to, but I think constantly admitting our faults, especially for people who suffer from low esteem, is bordering on self-defeating. It is also in keeping with the guilt inducing tactics of religious sects and cults, and I don’t need to tell you that confession is an integral part of Catholic dogma.
There is no such thing as a functional person. It is just that some of us are far more dysfunctional before we go through psychotherapy/12 Steps than others. This is directly related to the appalling nurturing (no blame attached) that we received as children. In my view some of the most functional people on the planet are those who have gone through a programme of recovery involving psychotherpy and 12 Steps. These people have true self-awareness which most people in the world do not have. They just continue acting out the dysfunctional patterns without seeing them.
I could equally argue that there is no such thing as a dysfunctional person and that it is just that some are more functional than others, although I don’t really want to. What I will do though, is argue that there are functional people, some more than others, some less than others, and there are also dysfunctional people. The ‘we are all fucked up’ argument is wearing a little thin. I think you have come to believe that the 12 steps are the Holy Grail of life, and as such, we should all practice them; no one is spared. You also use that ‘most people in the world’ argument again – I won’t repeat my point on that. I am not convinced self-awareness is the primary purpose of life. In my opinion, if it was then we would not have been given primal instincts that actually repel this kind of introspection. Sure we should have a heightened awareness of ourselves but in doing so we risk crossing the line where that self awareness becomes self consciousness and then we are in trouble. In the past this has led to self-obsession, but then again I think the 12 steps encourage this to some extent. They talk about God (as we understand him) yet they insist we have to make all the changes. Again, I ask where is the parity? (Too good to be true maybe? – random thought.) I wonder if you have sent this link to any of the people you sponsor or to friends in AA? When I removed myself from AA I realised that there was one thing more important than attempting to experience MY life, and that was experiencing life. That includes embracing different ways of living, and sharing our experiences with one another. Everyone should be given that chance and no one should ever be told that if they do not live a certian way they will almost certainly die, especially when that way of life is faith based rather than reason based. This only plays into the hands of the argument that AA is a cult.
I am really enjoying interacting and discussing all this stuff with you. Let's keep doing it as long as we live. We could have a very cool philosophical/religious/political discussion I'm sure!! I used to go to Speakers Corner and spout to try and find people like you to discuss life with. I'm glad that I've now found you!
Yes I am really enjoying this too. I feel as though we had to step up the heat a little so I hope this email is not too harsh. I have never been able to express these beliefs fully with anyone in AA without being silenced in the past, so it is fascinating to me.
AnonJ a m e s G