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The latest letters are posted on: Page 14 Updated 21/09/08
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." (Henny Youngman)
Letters and Comments
I can only speak for myself but without staying sober which started with AA I'd most likely be dead today. I know a lot who have stayed sober in AA, I myself have 15 years of clean time. I don't push AA on anyone, I tried quitting on my own and I couldn't, in AA I've learned to deal with life which I couldn't before. If someone can find another way to stay sober without going to AA more power to them, I was in and out of the program for 9 years before I finally stayed sober, I hated AA at first and I thought I could find a better way to get and stay sober. The bottom line is I'm not sure how much clean time you have but I hope you stay sober.
Firstly congratulations on your sobriety and thank you for your letter. You are right you can only talk for yourself, as can I. What definition of sobriety are we working with here; Bill W’s one or the real one? I also thought in AA it was a day at a time? I am only 29 years old and as such I am unlikely to have been as clean as long as you – in fact I have only been clean 18 months if the truth be known. However I am clean, and perhaps more importantly, I am happy and productive. I have a life today that I never had when I was using or when I was in AA. AA did not work for me, as it did not work for many of the visitors to this site and I am sick of people assuming I am going to fail simply because I have tried to work the Steps and they did not work for me. Is that so hard to believe? Or do you believe AA is the only way? After all AA only has a 5% success rate which is the same as spontaneous remission, so AA is not really a sure fire solution. In other words I am just as likely to stay clean outside AA as I am within it. Perhaps you should read some AA literature that is not approved by AA itself to get a more accurate picture of the situation. If you base your conclusions on what you hear at meetings and nothing else it is no wonder you have the beliefs you do about AA. You say you do push AA on anyone – so what was your letter about and the sly suggestion at the end – “The bottom line is I'm not sure how much clean time you have but I hope you stay sober”? I have the same chance of staying clean as you do – so I hope you stay clean too.
Anyway, thanks for the letter.
Good luck
TimGood luck too,
J a m e s G-------------------------------------------------------------
Hi James,
Hope you're well. Just a quick question about something on your website. You pulled [LH’s] diary because you didn't want to be seen to promote drinking. You then said:
"I know that many people cannot drink safely again"
How do you know that?
Hi John,
I am well thanks and I hope you are too.
I have not pulled LH's journals? What makes you say that? In fact I
just updated them today.
Yes I think that statement is not well put. Perhaps I should amend it
to say, 'I know many people feel they cannot drink safely again and as
such would prefer to remain abstinent'? What do you think?
I do appreciate it when people make good observations because I want
to be as clear as possible on the site, so thank you for taking the
time to point that out to me. It is a fairly sweeping statement I made
there - oh well you live and learn.
Thanks again,J a m e s G
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi James! I've been reading some of your posts on your site. While our views may differ ( I'm twenty six years sober in AA and NA) I'm writing to sincerely wish you well in your endeavors and in your recovery. I've also worked as a professional in the CD field. Their are many paths.
Best of luck to you,
Cary
Cary,
Thank you for your message. There are indeed many paths, many more than just the AA or NA way.
J a m e s G
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi. I'm T.M. and I'm an alcoholic. I just stumbled onto your site through YouTube and felt compelled to write.
Hi Tim, its been a while since someone has introduced themselves to me with that label. I am sure there is more to Tim that just your drinking, but hello anyway.
I feel that I have some idea as to who you are through the video clips and your posts, so I will give you a bit of info on me. I am a 34 year old male who started attending AA meetings about 6 months ago. I have had a problem with alcohol for over 10 years.
I know you are trying to be friendly, but I have to disagree with that because I am not really sure you know anything about me other than my views on AA and addiction – again that is not me; these are just but some of my views and experiences. I am not defined by my addiction. Well done for realising you had a problem – that is the biggest obstacle in all this, or it was for me anyway .
I am impressed with the way that you present your arguement and respect your views. I don't feel that you are "bashing" AA (I will speak of AA because I have no experience with NA), merely presenting an arguement as to flaws that you found or perceived throughout your association with the groups.
Thank you for the compliments. I think the site comes close to bashing AA but I had always hoped that it would attract more AA members so that we could have a proper debate about all this but sadly I have learned if you disagree with AA you are out. This kind of makes it hard to get any answers for the problems I pose from anyone in AA without them assuming I a bad person.
I do have a couple of concerns with some of what I read. First, I went into the hospital about 8 years ago for an alcohol related illness. My doctors, friends and relatives were concerned and wanted me to do something to prevent this from occurring again (stop or cut back on my drinking). Obviously, I was concerned as well, and agreed with them. My doctor recommended AA, but for reasons still somewhat obscure to me, I chose to try to stop on my own. This didn't work, I managed to stay sober for periods of time (usually 3 to 6 months and even 2 1/2 years one time), but always fell back. Along the way I tried many different "remedies". Usually after a relapse someone would recommend AA, but I found every reason not to try it. I even pointed out a book one time titled "How AA Failed Me" or something along those lines as a reason not to go (if it didn't work for everyone, it wouldn't work for me). I had heard the cult talk and it was enough to keep me from trying it. I wanted to stop, but at what cost? Finally, after I had exhausted all other options that I could find and felt that I had nowhere else to turn, I went to a meeting. For the first that I can remember, I have no desire to drink. My concern is that, while your information may be logical and well thought out for debate with members of AA, it may also disuade the alcoholic who is still looking for help from trying something that may well save his/her life. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be having this debate, but that maybe you could add some kind of note that encourages alcoholics looking for help to be open to any possible solution. I feel that I understand your point(s), but before I stopped drinking, It may have added to my fear about attending a meeting which could have been bad for me. Whether AA was cult or brainwashing or whatever, it is the only thing that I found that helped me to stop drinking and stop obsessing over alcohol. This has allowed me to see my problem more rationally (this didn't even happen when I stopped on my own for 2 1/2 years) and if that is all it ever does for me, that's plenty. In a nutshell, you seem like a compasionate person who wouldn't want to disuade someone who is suffering from getting help wherever possible.
Tim, you expressed that very well and I often think about that myself. When I first set up the site that issue concerned me more than it does now but my research has allowed me to learn the dangers of AA attendance as well as the possible benefits. I don’t think the fact that AA might work for 5% of the people that go is a good enough statistic to start recommending it. However I would add that if AA is working for anyone and they are happy in it, then that’s great. It did not work for me along with countless others, and in fact it has harmed some people. That is my concern today; not whether AA works for a small minority but that it actually hinders the vast majority. I wanted to provide a place for people to go who had been led to believe that AA was the only way despite the fact it had not worked for them and I think I have done that. I don’t think we should be censored in order to protect a very small minority.
This brings me to my second concern. I didn't checkout the entire site, but I think that if you are going to try to make an arguement that AA is not the answer, you should offer other solutions. You could be steering people away from the only solution that is available to them. So, when you convince them to turn, you shold tell them where to turn. If your site does offer information on this, I apologize for not seeing it and obviously this concern is not valid.
It’s fine to mention that. I do not offer a solution per se because I would like people to explore the options on their own. I make it clear that there are several solutions available to what I see as a very individual problem. I do silently support SMART by placing them on my links page. I do not want to get in the habit of telling people what to do, or what they should be doing. I don’t work a 12th Step in that respect.
I read the "Big Book" before my first meeting and didn't find any problem with the ideas in it. It offered me a lot of freedom to interpret and work the program in a way that was comfortable for me. But I can see how, in the groups, there can be a perceived pressure to conform. I truly think that those who wrote the book had no intent to brainwash or make people conform, they simply found something that worked for them and wanted to help others who suffered. I understand that some of the steps seem to you to make people feel that they are helpless, but I have never felt more a part of my own life than I do now. When I was drinking is when I was helpless.
Glad it appears to be working for you but perhaps you should read Agent Orange’s website and in particular his essays on the Big Book. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye.
Well anyway, I'm not trying to sway you. You have a lot more time around the rooms than me.
It does not really matter how much time we have around the rooms. If I had been a little more on the ball at the time I might have seen AA for what it really is earlier and saved myself a lot of bother. In fact the more time I had in AA the ‘sicker’ I got. I think out of all the letters I have had from AA members yours is the most reasonable, and you are entitled to your views just as much as me.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and good luck with your site, I will check in from time to time.
Thank you for writing to me and for keeping a somewhat open-mind.
Oh, by the way, I don't see anything from L.H. after Aug. 25, I would like to read more. And good job not condoning going back out, if alcohol has caused one problems there is no need to tempt fate.
If people want to drink that is their choice. I have heard from quite a few people that have been able to drink safely again, but this site, as I have stated earlier, is not about offering solutions or remedies, but rather about our experience of AA and our experience of leaving it. I allowed those journals because I think LH has been very honest in them and as such we all have a lot to learn from them. If someone is willing to try and drink safely again and is willing to be honest about that experience then that fits under the bracket of covering the topic of the process involved with leaving AA. Blamedenial is not about telling people what to do. (The journal have been updated by the way.)
Feel free to reply
Thanks again.
T.M.
Take care,
J a m e s G
-----------------------------------------------------------
RE: AA Cult Video on Youtube
That was very well done, sir! A very effective way of making the point.
I've said a million times before and I'll say it another million
times. Any group that tells me I will DIE if I leave, is a CULT.
Period. No ifs ands or buts.I was writing to ask if you had the text of that video
that I could share with someone - she has dial up and
so she can't watch videos.Donna
Donna,
Nope but I will type it out for her - hope she gets something from it.
J a m e s GPS The video can be viewed here.
My experience with a CULT
(Apologies for the music but there is a reason for it)
I had a problem and someone sent me to this group
The group told me I could not help myself
But that God could
They told me I had no control over anything
They told me I had to recruit new members for the group
They told me I owed the group everything because they 'saved' me
They told me to hand my life over to them and God
They were very nice to me at the start
But then I asked them questions and they told me I knew nothing
They told me to just trust them and confess my sins
They told me I had to keep going to the group forever...
Otherwise bad things will happen to me
They had this book there that was sacred
They had these rules for life I had to follow
There was a leader they kept quoting
What he said was not to be questioned although he is now dead
But I left the goup and none of them want to talk to me anymore
They told me I would die if I did not do what they suggested
Sound like a cult to you?
The group was called Alcoholics Anonymous
Still sound like a cult to you?
Thought not
What if I had told you it was AA at the start?
Would you have continued to watch this?
By the way he is singing about the recipe for a cake in this song.
Not everything is what is appears to be.----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response to a post on the 12 Step Free Forum:
Hello,
Thanks for your post…
From the list of policies and guidelines located on the home
page. "If you are a 12-step fan, politely asking why we reject 12-
step ideology is fine; you might learn something."
I am writing this to find out why you reject 12-step ideology. I
really do want to learn from you. I think it is only fair for me
to first list the results I got from doing the 12 steps.
1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had
become unmanageable. "I was powerless over alcohol and my life was
unmanageable."
I believe this step reduces the individual and his or her will to
less that useless and does nothing to alleviate the problem. It was
when I realised I had power over alcohol that might life turned
around. I had been indoctrinated with this belief from the age of
nineteen and with that I never bothered to even try and do something
about my drinking until I was desperate enough to return to the
horrors of AA. Step One has the desired effect of forcing the
individual to feel so awful about themselves that they have no
option but seek a `solution' which just so happens to be offered to
them by the very same people that state the problem. It is the start
of the War on Self that AA relies on to make the newcomer so
vulnerable that they have no option but to rely on the group and the
rest of the steps just to function. Step One does not state the
alcoholic is powerless over alcohol when it is in their system but
at any time!!! When this step is also taken with Step Twelve and the
new recruit practices `these principles in all their affairs,' they
are then force fed the idea that they are powerless over people
places and things – that they are nothing – `I am nothing, we are
everything.'
2.Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity. "I knew my actions were considered insane. Not only
when drinking but when I was not drinking. All I had to do was
believe god could restore me to sanity. And I did."
Aren't you the lucky one? I am afraid I could not believe in such a
thing happening to me. If I was going to be `restored to sanity' as
you put it, then I knew the only person responsible for that was me;
not God or a god or a Higher Power. That is an incredible
statement – `All I had to do was believe god could restore me to
sanity.' Why did he/she or it choose you, or if you prefer, why did
you choose him/her or it? Where did this belief come from? What if I
can't believe such a thing? Surely you are not saying that belief is
a choice? If you are, how can I force a belief on myself when I
simply can't believe it? I don't believe in AA either so I cannot
use `the group'. How could I when I saw the vast majority of my
friends relapse, or die, even when they were on `the program'? At
the same time even those who did `work the program' and
remained `sober' were miserable and constantly sharing about how
life was an upward struggle, as well as being full of self-hatred –
except when recruiting. Shares that resonated of messages saying
that when I am alone I am in bad company bore me to the point of
madness! I believe in myself despite the fact I have had problems
with substances in the past. I do not let that define me as an
individual and nor will I ever let it.
3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care
of God as we understood Him. "I've always believed in god. But a lot
of the time I was trying to be god. I got to see this when doing this
step. Today I know there is a god and I'm not him."
You got one thing right there, `I'm not him,' yet you are arrogant
enough to assume he has somehow chosen you to be saved. Think about
it. What do you have to say to the families of all the other
alcoholics that died trying to work this program? What you are not
saying is what you actually believe – their loved one was not good
enough for your Higher Power. Deluded. You might not think you are
god, but you think he/she or it has somehow passed on some of their
power to you. How exactly were you trying to be god? Ask your
sponsor that – I sure as hell hope you don't think getting drunk was
playing god. That whole `playing god' thing really does not make
sense. We all want to be in control of our own lives; that does not
mean we are `playing god'. One question – do you make any of your
own decisions anymore? If not, what process do you go through in
order to implement any action? Surely you have to choose to act on
your god's messages. How do you get these messages? Do you believe
in the notion of free will? Oh and if you think you were insane even
when you were not drinking, if you had not been so `fortunate' to
become (be born) an alcoholic (as I am sure that is how you now see
it) where would you have gone to sort out this insanity, seeing as
you would never have ended up at AA if you had not had a drink
problem? Or do you think you have been permanently damaged by your
drinking? But all this is just `noise' isn't it because what you are
saying is that ALCOHOL was NOT the problem, it was the fact you did
not believe in god. Many of us here on 12 Step Free thought we were
going to a self- help group to aid us with our drinking problems not
to be told we have to believe in god to get well. It's all about god
isn't it? I don't buy it. Have you heard of the Oxford Group? If not
google it.
4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. "I
made an inventory of my resentments, fear, and a sex inventory. "I
got to see how I had a part in all my resentments. Even one
resentment I had no part in, my part was holding on to it for
years." Step 4 for me was a chance to see my how my actions hurt others. I
was no longer the victim."
Glad to hear it, but who suddenly made you god and allowed you to
remove the word victim from the dictionary? There are plenty of
people, some of the members of this board included, that have good
reason to see themselves as victims. Amazing how you were you able
to play god and the victim at the same time. Again, I don't buy it.
Oh and I might add if you suddenly had a revelation and out of the
light came the realisation that you were not the victim but the
perpetrator, what does that make your victims? Oh shit you don't
have that word in your vocabulary anymore do you? Are they guilty
for knowing you, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or
are they just sinful and in need of a god too? All this stuff makes
sense in bite sized snippets, like you have presented it to us and
no doubt how it has been presented to you, but taken as a whole it
makes no sense whatsoever.
5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the
exact nature of our wrongs. "I shared these lists with god, myself
and my sponsor. When I finally told someone the exact nature of my
wrongs, I was finally relieved. I didn't have to keep these things
to myself any longer.
When was the last time you shared the nature of your rights? I can
just about see how this might be beneficial but not in the context
you set out. This does not have to be done as part of any program.
But I am curious to know how you shared them with god, and how you
knew he was listening?
6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of
character. "All I had to do was be ready for god to remove these
defects of character. And I didn't want to be the person who
treated others the way I treated them."
I like the contradiction there – `All I had to do was be ready for
god to remove these defects of character' and yet you then go on to
state that it was actually YOU that removed them by saying `I didn't
want to be the person who treated others the way I treated them,'
not HIM, not HER, NOT IT but `I'. (On a side note you use a
small `g' when referring to God but you state you have always
believed in God – what religion or belief have you always had that
refers to their God with a small `g'? Or was that a trick to make us
think this program is not in FACT about God but whatever we want our
Higher Power to be?)
7.Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. "I asked god to
remove my shortcomings. That was it. I felt so much better knowing
that I didn't have to continue to harm people anymore.
ISM – I Self ME – is that not what you all talk about? See point
above – did you really need God to show you that or was that a
choice that was REALLY down to you?
8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to
make amends to them all. "I made a list of the people I harmed. I
did not put people on the list I didn't harm.
Why would you put people on the list you DIDN'T harm? I mean, why
add that? I suppose once you have been through the process of THE
WAR ON SELF it is hard not to see EVERYONE who has ever been near
you as being HARMED. Did you want to add anymore statements like
that saying something similar? Perhaps that maybe you don't really
believe you are powerless over alcohol and it is just a cop out to
explain everything I did? Of all the things you write here that is
the most intriguing – why did you add that? It's like saying, `I
might be lying about everything else, but NOT this – I promise,
honest.'
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when
to do so would injure them or others. "This was a wonderful step
for me. I actually got to take responsibility for what I did in the
past. I didn't blame anything on my drinking. I'll share one
amends I made. I had to make an amends to my ex-wife. I told her what I
did wrong. I asked if I did anything else to harm her I wasn't aware
of. Then I asked what I could do to make it right. We are currently
dating today. We have a great relationship today. I got to rebuild
relationships with all the people I caused harm to. How cool is
that."
How cool is it that your wife escaped your madness and has now been
exposed to it again? That's great! Where's the champagne? `I
actually got to take responsibility for what I did in the past,' yet
you also believe you are powerless over alcohol (people places and
things) and that it is God that has made you better; so much for
taking responsibility. Hmm nice God you have there that made you do
all these `bad' things and only relieved you of them when you
acknowledged him. I Self Me - How many more Is are we going to get
from you? Damn you were so powerful in your world weren't you,
causing all this pain and making it good now? Where was your God
when you were doing all that? `How cool is that.' Again you don't
add that when you state that you found God again – perhaps you only
got sober to get your wife back? And now you have you are making the
mistake of attributing this to God when in fact it might have just
been luck. I wonder how much you would think of this program had
YOUR objectives not been met but you are deluded enough to think
this is God's will aren't you? Dear Lord, if there is a Lord, save
this man's soul, if he has a soul. That is what I am going to be
praying tonight even though I am an agnostic!
10.Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
promptly admitted it. "I do this every day. If I do something
wrong today I can admit it. Now I have a totally new outlook on life.
Life is good today. The obsession to drink has been removed. "
Can I come to your AA graduation? Oops there is no graduation in
AA. If you can admit that you have done something wrong, why don't
you start by admitting coming to a community that is trying to rid
themselves of the 12 Steps is the WRONG place to go to preach your
ways? We are not an ignorant bunch here, as you would know if you
had bothered to read all the posts, rather than wading in with what
you wrote. I made a similar mistake in the past on here, and I
admitted this pretty much immediately. I feel a Step 8 brewing…but
fret not, we don't want to hear the Step Nine – we believe in action
over words unlike AA.
11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious
contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge
of His will for us and the power to carry that out. "I pray and
meditate twice a day. Once in the morning and once at night."
This step makes absolutely no sense to me whatever, so to comment on
that would be to assume I understand what it means but I think my
previous answers go someway to highlighting how I feel about this.
If it works for you, great – don't force this down my neck – I don't
believe in a micro-managing God period, so please don't try and
convince me I am doomed because I don't. Boring, chosen one.
12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps,
we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these
principles in all our affairs. "My spirit has been awakened today
as a result of these steps. I can now share this with someone who
wants me too. I don't force anyone to do what I did."
I don't buy it – your spirit, whatever that is, may have been awaked
by getting your ex-wife back, or it might have been awakened by not
drinking yourself into a consequence finding mission, but it is NOT
because of these steps. Thanks for sharing but we have heard this
over and over and over and over and over again, and yet again, and
then some more; I went to 90 meetings before I went to 90 meetings
and then I did 90 more – over and over….. I can't help but feel that
your spirit is now awakened not because the will of YOUR god is
being done but rather because you are getting what YOU want. Hmm.
"If you are a 12-step fan, politely asking why we reject 12-step
ideology is fine; you might learn something." I am politely asking
why you reject 12-step ideology? If I'm missing something please
let me know.
See above.
Good luck and believe it or not I feel for you rather than annoyed
but I took this opportunity to `say it how it is' and to be honest.
J a m e s G
Blamedenial.co.uk
PS Have you told your ex wife the group sees her as sick too and
that she needs Alanon? If not perhaps you should send her to her a
meeting – is that not the solution to EVERYTHING?---------------------------------------------------------------------
hello james
Hello C,
ive been watching your new video.
I am going to be honest mate. I am not writing this to make you feel bad.
Ok – thanks for clarifying that – I would always ask anyone writing to me to be honest.
I dont understand why you are making such self indulgent videos, rambling on about voices in your head and applying this to AA.
This is the second time you have suggested that my videos are ‘self-indulgent’. I would ask for some further clarification on that point. Of course there will always be an element of ‘self’ involved with the videos seeing as they are about my experience, unlike my shares in AA that were about how AA wanted me to put across my experience in order to be approved by the group and credited with delivering a ‘good’ share. What would you advise me to do; talk about everyone else’s experience and how they should feel like AA does?
I would agree that the Is AA a Cult? Video could be charged with ‘rambling’ but at the time that is what I said and that is what I uploaded and kept in the final edit. If you go to my videos page I make it very clear that ALL my videos are “work in progress”. I am not entirely sure where you got the voices in my head. The whispering at the beginning was an artistic way of portraying how it felt to sit in a room full of people whose program you no longer believed in. Again, this point is made clear in the film.
But any way thats your buisness,not mine i suppose.
Have you got a solution to AA?
What do you suggest we do?
Drink? Bang up? have a toot? go to meetings and dont do either?
I think blamedenial is a good idea, it would be even better if it carried hope - it doesnt for me, and maybe somebody else has this opinion.When you ask if I have a solution to AA, do you mean a solution that involves de-programming or an alternative to AA? I am not in the habit of telling people how to live or to do anything but I quietly approve of SMART by adding a link to their site on my links page. As far as a solution to AA goes, I do not believe it is within my power or influence to change AA; I am not even sure AA is able to change. For the 95% of people that ‘the only solution’ does not work for they have no voice in AA – that is reserved for the 5% who seem to believe it is AA that has kept them sober. Based on that, do you see any chance of AA changing and evolving? Why would the 5% that claim AA works and the 5% that have the voice want to change anything?
It reminds me of miltons paradise lost.
Although I have heard of it I am yet to read it. I shall have to read it; I am interested in any books involved with the notion of utopia or dystopia.
wheres the hope mate?
I am not trying to offer anyone false hope. All I am doing is expressing how I feel about AA and allowing others to do the same. AA does not really offer hope to the alcoholic either which can be proven by its abysmal success rate. Maybe for a while it makes us feel like we are tackling our ‘problems’ but one day some of us wake up and realise that the solution only serves to compound the original problem. I am only talking for myself, but the hope and desire for life only returned once I realised there were other people out there that felt like I did about “the only solution” ever offered to me.
You think you and Orange alone can change AA?
I left AA because I realised I could not change it but I can help others see it for what it is – which is an institution that engages in a war on self. As for Orange I can’t speak for him, but I don’t think he is that interested in changing AA, but you’ll have to check that out with him. If anything I would like to see my work as helping to create a more accurate and balanced public perception of AA.
People are not forced to go, and just because you dont like it, you will see that there are a lot of people that do - i have been going for years and i went through a very anti aa phase - but couldnt find anywhere else at all where i could identify with other piss heads.
The rooms are HEAVING with people and yet AA doesnt take names,tell anybody what to do,or take phone numbers or even demand money other than tradition 7.People are forced to go to AA by the courts in the US and whilst the tactics employed by many treatment centres might look like the patient has a choice in what model of recovery they choose to employ, they don’t really have that choice. If you go to a 12 Step treatment centre and reject AA ideology, the chances are you will not be offered any form of alternative.
There are THOUSANDS of meetings and maybe 20 websites around the world being anti AA.
Can you send me a link to all those websites?
I am trying to help you here - i dont think your heart is in the meetings, but i just dont see a solution in your long, convoluted arguments - i see a lot of intelligent design in your case against AA - but i dont see an alternative.
Again it is not my desire to offer the only solution to what I see as an individual problem but there are many alternatives out there that can be found without me or anyone else forcing their solution down anyone’s neck. I don’t get drunk and I don’t get high – that is a pretty good start. I had to reach a point where I had that desire but I don’t call this a rock bottom or anything else; just a point where I decided enough was enough and it was time to take responsibly for my life. I did not see how a God I did not have any understanding of, let alone any communication with, could act as a being that dictated my will. That idea just did not work for me.
It reminds me of liberal thinkers who criticise democracy in the current political climate, say how wonderful cuba is, but stage all there criticisms from western liberal democracies - its called double speak, you cannot have it both ways - you cant, think about it - you cannot have this if you have principles.
Hmm – I see your point which seems like a really clever ploy to undermine what I am saying but you fail to show any examples. What exactly can’t “you have if you have principles”? I would also like to add that you fail to acknowledge one vital difference between the example that you use and what I am doing; I am not dealing with countries, or politics, I am concerned with individuals and their experience of AA and the 12 Steps.
What solution can you offer me? - a drunk pill popping nutcase for 20 years who has been sober for a year USING AA? - who has found the best friends in the world in AA? I really have, all my AA friends have been there for me at the drop of a hat - all my drunk ex pals are either sitting outside the dole waiting for a crisis loan, or dead.
Why would I have to offer you a solution? Have you not found it, or are you not claiming to have found it? If AA is working for you and you believe it will for the rest of your life then who am I to tell you another solution? I make it very clear to people who come to my site that are happy in AA that I think that is great but all I ask is that you do not force AA down the throats of vulnerable newcomers and tell them that it is the only route to recovery. (If you are so happy in AA and it has worked so well for you, why do you think Blamedenial is a good idea exactly?)
If it doesnt work for you - thats your buisness - but dont criticise without a solution mate.
I,like you,have tried cold turkey and hard ass recovery,its not a disease and im just weak and pitiful reovery, i am sober,through AA - through the PEOPLE.
That cant be a bad thing James.AA not only did NOT work for me but it also made my drinking and using worse. That is the whole point. (Again there is research to show this is the case.) If AA had not force fed me the idea that it was the only way then I would have no objection and when it had not worked for me I would have moved on quietly to try something else but because of the deep-routed dogma and messages in my mind from AA attendance, no other mode of recovery stood a chance. In my eyes I had to be desperate enough to need AA before I could recover. I could have very easily died in that process as many of my friends have. But for the sake of argument I do have a solution; don’t get drunk and don’t get high and if you need AA to do that then don’t tell everyone else they do too.
And why dont you be really up front about your #1 addiction - i dont know but i reckon you prefer the needle perhaps? - this isnt a personal attack,if im wrong tell me and i apologise straight away.
If it is -why are you ranting about AA?I am pretty clear about my number one addiction and that has always been heroin. However as part of my treatment I was told I was an alcoholic by both the treatment centre and people in AA meetings. But this is a red herring anyway as we all know the 12 Steps are not about alcohol, drugs, or anything else other than spiritual conversion hence the reason they only mention addiction once in Step one. No offence, but that is a cheap shot and completely irrelevant to this whole debate. Once I accepted Step One at the age of 19 with regards to alcohol, the foundation was set for me to become an alcoholic. Even Bill W says that alcohol is but a symptom of our disease…if you believe it is a disease.
c
please can you keep me anonymous in your response,i dont want a flame war. i , like you have strong opinions, but respect your views. Mine like yours though are open to criticism.
Of course I will keep this anonymous as you have requested that.
J a m e s G
Response:
Hi James
Thanks for replying.No problem – it was an interesting email. Thanks for your reply too. (Anything that is indented is a quote from my last my email to you that you included in your response.)
"This is the second time you have suggested that my videos are 'self-indulgent'. I would ask for some further clarification on that point"
I just find them self indulgent,soul less and without hope. But thats my opinion. They bring me down watching them - no cheap shots from me. Just honesty. And as i have said - i am not trying to attack you as a person.
Soulless and without hope – sounds a little like the 12 Steps to me. Has it ever occurred to you that the reason they might appear like this to you is because you are a 12 stepper? You are in the program and for all intents and purposes ‘working’ it, so when you see, hear or read anything that questions that ideology you are going to feel like that. About three years ago I found Orange’s site and despite the fact I was very much on the outside of AA at the time I still felt as though I had to defend AA. Until I really took the time to learn about the history of AA, the Oxford Group and read literature not approved by AA, I was completely incapable of listening to anything that was not absolutely pro-AA. I remember reading Orange’s words and planning some kind of epic moral crusade against him AND this was when I was drinking, drugging and NOT working the steps. I revisited his site in sobriety two yeas later and initially I felt all those old feelings coming back but then I thought I’d better give him the benefit of the doubt and read more of his site. I did just that, and I looked for other people that felt the way he did and it became apparent to me they all had a point. They felt like I did but I had never come across anyone who spoke out against AA so I thought it was just me. Perhaps you might suggest I am on a crusade now, but I don’t think I am; I simply want to make my experience known to people who feel like me and allow others to do the same.
What would you advise me to do; talk about everyone else's experience and how they should feel like AA does?
No, i would like you to advertise your sobriety time to the world. And perhaps encourage. Again,just my opinion.Remember - im not telling you,or anybody else to go to AA.
I have been clean 18 months. I thought it was all about a day at a time in AA? How ‘clean’ do I have to be to have a valid opinion in your eyes considering no one can ever be cured according to AA? Encourage what exactly? What is your definition of sobriety? In order to answer that question fully you would have to define sobriety and then go one step further and equate its importance in living a healthy a life. I talk to people who are not sober but are still very much living lives that I would like to have much more than anyone I ever came across in the rooms. AA has redefined the word sobriety which makes that question very hard to answer. You cannot come into this debate from the AA mindset, using words AA has made their own; you have to start again, with a blank canvas and make no assumptions. That does not mean you have to ignore AA’s ideology, terminology, but you have to at least be willing to challenge it if you are going to challenge mine, or indeed me. Is it possible AA could be wrong about some of these things, or is AA infallible? I am happy to accept I might be wrong but thus far no one has persuaded me otherwise although I remain happy to be challenged. One of the biggest reason I continue to run the site is because I like the challenge, and I have been wrong in the past which I have admitted, despite the fact you have encouraged me NOT to in the past. In case you have forgotten here is the text from the email you sent me dated the 28th of July 2006:
The thing with an opposing view is that you have to maintain a line of opinion, which AA does and so does Orange.
However,Orange isn't obeying the rules of self promotion, he attracts people through links to other sites, such as yours.You are closing a door on an opinion in an act of drawn out self censorship - your view point will be replaced and mirrored I hope [your initial viewpoint].
Are you finally admitting that you were wrong about AA? You say that 3 months before you were banging on about AA in a pro manner - this is usual, I have done it my self - then you reached a crescendo where you were anti AA, now you are back looking at AA in a positive light.?Or perhaps you are just confused.So where do you stand now or are you guilty of the same thing you accused me of? All your emails have been very supportive until that one, and the ones lately clearly show a very strong U-turn. I have never been entirely pro AA with Blamedenial, even when I was contemplating closing the site down. The reasons for closing the site (when I wanted to) had nothing to do with AA. I don’t have to maintain anything, be it a strong line of opinion or anything else. Who wrote those rules? I am not only here to promote my beliefs, or stance, but also to hear others and God forbid learn from others. This is a two way thing. I think you believe Blamedenial is more important than it really is – I am just an ex-stepper expressing his views. I am one man; that is all. If you really believe I am not allowed to change my views and evolve then that is ridiculous, but that makes sense considering the fact that AA has not changed or evolved since its inception. Hmm perhaps it is you that is confused? Just a thought. Has something happened in your life to cause this change of heart? I only ask that because you asked me that exact question in the letter dated above – again incase you have forgotten this is what you asked:
As a sober alcoholic etc I would have to say that maybe you are having problems exterior to the website - if so, I hope you get sorted and that this stuff isn't turning you back to whatever "fix" we type of people seem to lust after.
The whispering at the beginning was an artistic way of portraying how it felt to sit in a room full of people whose program you no longer believed in. Again, this point is made clear in the film.
James,geezer,please, is AA that sinister? - i understand the old "just because you are paranoid,dont think there not after you" - but wheres the conspiracy? I dont do most of the programme either. But all i know is that theres a bunch of folks willing to help out,and it doesnt cost me a penny.
Yes I do. That does not mean I think all AA members are, but they are trying to convince people of something that does not work, and sadly have fallen for Bill Wilson’s chicanery. I have paid over £20,000 to treatment centres for my ‘recovery’, so it has cost me money. My objections lie with not only AA, but the whole 12 Step juggernaut including NA, and treatment centres as well as courts that send people to any of them. AA is the most recognised of those institutions and as such I use AA to denote all of them. AA started the ball rolling, and continues to spin its tricks.
For the 95% of people that 'the only solution' does not work for they have no voice in AA – that is reserved for the 5% who seem to believe it is AA that has kept them sober. Based on that, do you see any chance of AA changing and evolving? Why would the 5% that claim AA works and the 5% that have the voice want to change anything?
The 95% figure is simply wrong. That figure that Orange quotes is wildly out of date - and its scribbled on a piece of paper in hand writing [we dont belive our governments about WMD and there presentations cost millions, yet 1 scrawl on 1 piece of paper holds such substance?]. Im not saying this because im related to Bill Dubya,im saying this because i know it is wrong. I know it is, i ganged together with 10 people in early recovery - and we have all stayed sober for nearly a year. We met in AA. we phone each other,go out,socialise and even have days where we dont talk book. I know around 30+ people from 3 meetings who have been sober for more than 3 years. I thought the 95% was true,until i started asking people in the meetings. Your problem is that you are not asking people, you are quoting Orange.And you cant say that Orange doesnt have an agenda to undermine AA - he does. Thats not a personal attack by the way, my aim is not to use ad hominem and all that debating tactic that Orange talks about - i cant even remember the styles he talks about it's so not me. Im just a sober fat bloke down here who has kept sober using AA:-))))
As I said in my last email to you, I cannot speak for Orange but I have forwarded him this segment of your email so he may answer it for himself. Why do you want to bring politics into this? I will repeat my earlier that stated this is not about countries, wars or anything of the like; it is about individuals trying to deal with their individual problems, and there is not a ONE size fits all solution to those problems. I will say that Orange uses external sources, academic ones to boot, to back up his arguments. In other words this is not his opinion alone. Perhaps you are talking to the wrong people too; after all you have admitted that you ‘ganged together with ten people in early recovery’; what of those newcomers that never come back, or those that have relapsed? I was around the rooms for a while too and I can safely say there were many new faces week in week out that never returned. 30 people is not a lot in the grand scheme of things either. However I am happy that you think AA is working for you. Do you think AA is the only way, and if not, then why are you here arguing against facts? I certainly don’t claim to have the only way.
I am not trying to offer anyone false hope
So, it didnt work for you - everybody else can be doomed then? Hows about highlighting what YOU are doing right - your an ex substance abuser like me - a success.
Everyone? Where did you get that extraordinary figure from? Is that not a little black and white? Where is your grey area? I have never said everyone in AA is doomed, and if I have, please tell me where it is written on the site or expressed in any video I have made. As for what I am doing right, again I stated this in my last email to you, I am not getting drunk and I am not getting high as well as living my life. Just because my way of life does not involve AA or its dogma, are you suggesting that I should be gagged? It is not the fact that it did not work for me that concerns me, it is the fact I was told I would die if I did not work this program, that it was the only way, and that I was powerless over alcohol, drugs, people, places and things – the fact that it harmed me.
Can you send me a link to all those websites?
Yes of course i will. I deleted all of them but have a few in my head,gimme a couple of days.
I had to reach a point where I had that desire but I don't call this a rock bottom or anything else; just a point where I decided enough was enough and it was time to take responsibly for my life.
I garuntee you will have seen squalor though [rock bottom], like i did - ive written a book about it, it had such a profound effect on my life 10 years ago and i was still picking up dog ends and poncing well into my early 30's. The taking action bit, what if you never heard ANY advice at all? All you ever heard about was "managing" your addiction [a "yes" to more using]. come off it James mate, i will talk with you about addicition in a few paragraphs.
Rock bottom for me is 6 foot under. I suffered a lot through my addiction but I refuse to blame that on a disease or anything else that absolves me of responsibility for my actions. Every time I got high I had a choice, and at the time I thought in error that getting high would be more fun than withdrawing and taking responsibility for my life. ‘Managing’ my addiction? Where do you get that from? I don’t take heroin anymore. I was sent to a 12 Step rehabilitation because the people around me wanted me to want to stop, as did I, but I did not really want to stop, and until I did, I was never able to stay clean.
Hmm – I see your point which seems like a really clever ploy to undermine what I am saying but you fail to show any examples
mate - i am a decent man, an ex drunk idiot and also a fantastic salesman when i was in sales. I have nothing but honesty in my arguments now though - no sales stuff - i will not use debating tactics [ad hominem??] in my discussions with you. I dont do clever ploys –
im just a bright boy like you and used to cuba/liberals comment to show examples - because a lot of people do argue like that. Like when i said about driving people to meetings in the car and not saying anything.Hmm. Ok, not entirely sure what your point is. I just think those comparisons are irrelevant. What has this got to do with Cuba or the liberals?
…if you believe it is a disease.
Just because you dont believe it, doesnt make it untrue, and im afraid to say that the GMC disagrees apparentley,because alcoholics are offered "treatment" nowadays[Detox,CBT,counselling,AA even] - under GMC guidelines.
Every doctor i have spoken to [including the one at the nice new pavilion surgery just this week] say it exhibits all the make up of a disease. Im afraid to say that maybe you should ask healthcare professionals in the UK,there is,thankfully a sea change - 10 years ago i was just a fucking piss artist in a doctors eyes.
[Text removed]Every doctor you have spoken to – I have spoken to both doctors that agree with the disease concept and those that don’t. This extract might interest you:
Early in the 20th Century, the validity of the disease concept was often debated in medical circles. However, in 1956 the American Medical Association (AMA) proclaimed alcoholism an "illness." Then, in 1966, the AMA proclaimed alcoholism a disease. The decision was wrapped in controversy. Historically, Marty Mann had her hand in much of this and manipulated information and doctors into agreeing with the disease concept. Marty Mann used her position as founder of the NCA (National Counsel for Alcoholism) to promote the disease concept through Jellinek and a somewhat clandestine relationship with the founder of the NIAAA (National Institute for Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse) whose founder worked with Marty Mann during the institute's early development. The founder of NIAAA (R. Brinkley Smithers) was a major contributor to and promoter of the disease concept. It was his money that actually funded Jellinek's work at Yale. Smithers was also responsible for gaining insurance coverage for patients in treatment (hence the 28 day program). Smithers was certainly not altruistic in his efforts. At that time he had already launched a treatment program for which he was lobbying for insurance payments. Acceptance by the medical community was the only way this could happen; alcoholism had to be a medical problem in order for medical insurance to pay for programs. We can see the influence of these "advances" everyday in treatment programs. Today the treatment industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, with insurance paying the lion's share of the costs. (Available here.)
If AA is working for you and you believe it will for the rest of your life then who am I to tell you another solution?
You are,by having blamedenial remember? YTou are telling me that AA doesnt work,and backing it up with quack figures.
I am showing my research, and the figures are not quack. I am saying AA did not work for me, as well as 95% of the rest of us that went to it. Has it ever occurred to you that you might fall into the 5%? And if you do I am happy for you.
I am pretty clear about my number one addiction and that has always been heroin
So why are you attacking AA? Attack NA? Its strange that an ex addict would create a whole website dedicated to attacking AA and not be an alcoholic. Bill W did say that alcohol was but a symptom,but he did use the word alcohol. And a lot of the stories deal with alcohol in the big book - not gear. Im not being shirtty there james, i just dont get that.
I say what I have to say about AA because I was sent to AA meetings by the treatment centres I attended and I was also told I was an alcoholic by the members of those meetings. What would you have advised me to do at the time? Tell them I refuse to go? Tell the oldtimers they don’t quite get it? Tell them I am not a drunk? The more I told them I was not a drunk the more they told me I was. After a few meetings in AA it was not long before I believed I was indeed an alcoholic. Besides when we use AA’s definition of sobriety, you can still be a ‘dry drunk’ without even drinking, so alcohol is not really the root cause of the condition or ‘disease’. Maybe you should encourage AA not to try and appeal to absolutely anyone and dissuade the courts from sending people to them. The only difference between NA and AA in that respect is that I gave NA more reason to call me an addict and instil the belief of Step One in me. It is a minor point anyway, because steps 2-12 remain the same for both organisations, and I believe all of them are detrimental to the individual. The notion of powerlessness in Step one is also a major objection whether that be for alcohol, or heroin, or anything else for that matter.
But this is a red herring anyway as we all know the 12 Steps are not about alcohol, drugs, or anything else other than spiritual conversion hence the reason they only mention addiction once in Step one
That could be construed in debating terms as a neat "get out of jail" moment. Alcoholics anonymous is for alcoholics, are you an alcoholic?
AA is for alcoholics? What is your definition of an alcoholic? I think you will find that Tradition Three makes it very clear that, ‘The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.’ I find it amusing that you think you could have forced me into such a position – not at all – Are you not trying to give me a get out of AA moment there? Damn can’t believe someone would actually talk out against my life line, better tell him he does not belong here – kind of thinking? Even if I did not belong in AA it would do little to undermine my points. You are using the argument that only alcoholics understand one another; if that was the case would you still try and undermine my points against NA in the same manner although all those points could be equally be used against AA?
Once I accepted Step One at the age of 19 with regards to alcohol, the foundation was set for me to become an alcoholic.
So AA turned you into al alkie? I can get down with that 100% No argument and i will agree with you. Being in care and being surrounded by nutters in childrens homes turned me into a head case,was it a disease or learned behavuiour? Does it matter? I have a solution now.
James, you will always have a mate down here if you ever wanna chat/socialise, and like i have said, i think you are a success mate to get off the gear - and i think your website is important. I just would like to see hope in it. Your a good bloke.
Thank you for the compliments but they are a complete contradiction. I will happily continue this debate via email. Maybe you could tell me why you think my website is important if you are so against many of the ideas in it?
[Text removed by your request] Thanks James.
C
Thanks C,
J a m e s G
PS some quotes from your previous correspondence –
Hi james
Just checked out your site again- fantastic! (18th of May 2006)Thx for the reply again - and congratulations on your post on mollys!
“Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles.” (Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Bill Wilson, page 174.)
Ive been waiting about a year to make a post like that! (16th of May 2006)
Hi james.
great site, i have spoken to you several times now, but would like to tell anybody else reading why i am anti AA as well. (18th of May 2006)Alot of people i know get lost in the isms - they could quote for the UK and like to show off these skills in front of other members during there shares.
What a starnge cult.all the best. (20th of May 2006)
I think your friend goes off the richter scale for quotations when he quotes kissinger - i spat tea all over my desk with laughter at that!
Kissinger? water gate? sacked from 911 comission?The 2nd Most untrusted politician in american history?(20th of May 2006)
Reminds me of your arguments with Cuba/liberals.
If you think it is unfair for me to quote all this then I would ask you to consider the fact that none of the letters posted on my site are ever edited, other than for spelling mistakes or typos. I am willing to have people challenge me on what I said yesterday, and if I was wrong I am happy to admit it. If you have since changed your views please admit that – like I have.
Response:
Hey James
Not as nice a reply - not because you are not telling me what i want to hear, but basically you are accusing me now of being brainwashed. Oh well."Soulless and without hope – sounds a little like the 12 Steps to me. "
Erm,no. Some of us had belief before Bill Wilson, James.
That is an interesting point. If you had belief before Bill Wilson then surely it is not AA that has made the difference to your life?
Perhaps you might suggest I am on a crusade now
Yes i do. And am i? No, but you ask for feedback. If you ever want me to stop replying,i will.
I don’t really understand why you have a problem with me expressing my opinions and my experience of the 12 Steps. We don’t agree but if AA is allowed to promote its program, then surely I am allowed to tell people how it did NOT work for me?
Hmm perhaps it is you that is confused? Just a thought. Has something happened in your life to cause this change of heart?
Was confused. yes a lot has changed. And i rarley go to meetings as well. Hope this doesnt confuse as much.
Thanks for clarifying that. Not sure what to make of it though, although you clearly believe the program is working for you; so I am happy that you have found something.
So where do you stand now or are you guilty of the same thing you accused me of? All your emails have been very supportive until that one, and the ones lately clearly show a very strong U-turn. I have never been entirely pro AA with Blamedenial
yes i am guilty of this.
I encourage people to change their minds and be honest about that. I don’t think you are “guilty” of anything; I was merely pointing out the fact that earlier in our correspondence you wrote to me telling me to stick to my opinions and be more strong minded.
As I said in my last email to you, I cannot speak for Orange but I have forwarded him this segment of your email so he may answer it for himself. Why do you want to bring politics into this?
I dont wish to correspond with such a skill honed troll as Orange. And i dont wish our e-mails to be shared with him.If you dont see the politics in such arguments,then i cant say much more. AA is a political movement according to you - with your videos of soldiers running around in there pants and symbolism etc.
That is fair enough and those are your views but if you are going to say things like that in the public sphere then you can’t expect people not to respond to them, and if they feel those opinions are wrong, not to defend themselves. As for my video suggesting that AA is a political movement, I may indeed think that, but that was not the purpose of the soldiers “running around in there [sic] pants”; that is your interpretation of it.
I am saying AA did not work for me, as well as 95% of the rest of us that went to it. Has it ever occurred to you that you might fall into the 5%?
Those figures are wrong -go back to them,go to the latest figures closer to 60%.
Can you please send me some evidence to back these claims up? I find it hard to believe that a program that has never changed can suddenly improve its results so dramatically.
In fact i cant be arsed to argue. Good luck James.
Yeah -i changed my mind,and i am glad i did.I am not arguing with you – I am defending myself and might I remind you that it was you that emailed me in the first place. If you do not want to argue, then don’t; no one is forcing you to do anything.
Nice one for staying clean.
Thank you. Good luck.
J a m e s G
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Hello James,
Thank you for your FASCINATING youtube videos. In particular, I would like to commend you for your THIRTEENTH STEP post...I believe your latest video. Unfortunately, in Southern CA., where I got sober, this is QUITE a trend--for both men and women. I have had some less than pleasant experiences with this myself.I appreciate you getting the message out there to all...esp. the VULNERABLE female newcomer.
Sincerely,
Kathleen--yes, I AM an alcoholic!
Kathleen,
Thank you for your message. I have had very little feedback on that particular video compared with the others, but I am glad that you think it has a purpose.
Would be nice to hear more from you if you have the time.
Kind regards,
J a me s G
--------------------------------------------------------------
Hello James,
Found your link from Orange's site. Attached is some stuff that really helped me out when new to AA alternatives. It's from rational.org site. (Jack and Lois Trimpey). They encourage distribution so it's OK if you feel like using it on your site, which I found very informative by the way, and the Yahoo group as well ( I presume you started 12-step-free). I look foreward to visiting your site often.
Best of luck to you ! ,
Gary K.
Chipley, FLHi Gary,
Thanks for the email. I will upload those attachments to the site soon. I am afraid to say that I did not set up the 12 Step Free forum although I often post on there. It is an interesting place to share ideas.
Thanks again,
J a m e s G
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I just wanted to say thank you! I have gone to AA meetings and recently entered a rehab group that supposedly did not enforce going to AA, but yet that's all they teach! I realized from day one of AA that it was not for me and "cult" continued to enter my head. I have searched online for others that feel as I do and finally found you on youtube.com. Everything I was feeling was put into words by you. It was such a relief to find someone else that feels as I do! So thanks again and keep up the thought provoking work you are doing!
Hello,
Thank you for your support and I am glad that you find the videos valuable and useful. We are lucky that Youtube is available!
I would really like to hear more about your story if you have the time to tell me.
Good luck with everything and stay in touch.
J a m e s G
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Dear James:
I need to be anonymous.I do not believe that AA is treatment; I do not believe it is a support group.
If a person feels the need for a support group, there are viable options available. Folks should investigate their options and take a decision. Employ methods that are effective; this is a personal decision.
95% leave AA within one year. Only 5% remain. Very interesting.
Substance abuse treatment and AA know next to nothing about people like me. I quit getting drunk because I decided to that. I decided to get drunk, I decided to get sober. Why? Because getting drunk was interfering with what I needed to do.
As for AA: It is a cipher; empty words. AA is run by and for the benefit of itself; and, for the benefit of the 5% who remain.
I appreciate the good work that you have done. Good on you!
Call me H.
I need to be anonymous.
H,
Thanks for your email that is very much to the point – I think I need to take a leaf out of your book on that point! In keeping with that, I have nothing to add!
Thanks again,
J a m e s G
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Well, sillypants...
Hello Heroineater,
still seems like your absorbed in self.
That is a pretty standard steppers accusation. It is so vague it is virtually impossible to answer. Rather like your introduction, “sillypants”.
How many countless people are helped through the program of AA?? Quite considerably more than those who are harmed.
Not according to the evidence. Show me where you get your figures from, or are you simply basing that on what you hear in your meetings and from the people you choose to surround yourself with?
This is actually quite a unique point of view. Of all the reasoning I've heard from people denying AA, this takes the cake. It would appear that a lot of thought went into this attempt to let the public know how you feel about an organization you obviously need help from.
Having walked away from my computer for 10 minutes because I could not stop laughing, I have returned to answer the rest of your email. You are saying that because I do not believe in AA’s 12 Steps I need them? Wow – that is NOT a unique point of view, which is rather frightening to say the least. Is anyone allowed to be spared the 12 Steps? You have also redefined the word “obviously”; how do I obviously need help? All you know about me is what I have told you in one video. That is quite a conclusion you come to.
That would be expected though, most people who just "don't wanna!" go through with this do need to exert A LOT of thought and effort into convincing themselves otherwise.
Oh, this just gets better – so EVERYONE that says they don’t believe in AA is WRONG and in need of the program? Newsflash my friend, there is not a single solution to all of life’s problems; we are individual humans, not a herd of sheep. Realising that I am not a bad person in need of a cult to live has taken a lot of individual thought and effort. You seem offended by the notion that I do not hate myself and that I do not need to feel bad about that fact.
In your case, it would appear you have a need for convincing other people aswell as yourself in order for you to back up your own conclusion. I also will say that if your so concerned with helping people by saving them from the evil that is AA, why is it that you disregard the far larger percentage of AA's which find this program life changing and extremely beneficial??
Again, where are you getting these figures? At best the real research shows a 5% success rate within AA, even by AA’s own reckoning. Send me the facts that back up your assertions and I will close the site down – that is how confident I am that you are wrong about that. You are suffering from admiration prior to investigation with regards to the program. You might want to start with an internal AA document when looking for the true figures – www.blamedenial.co.uk/random.html
If you think about it, your crusade is pretty darn selfish...if you think about it.
You think it is selfish for me to express a view that does not agree with yours? What if that is my experience? Want me to bite my lip? I think it is pretty selfish to promote a form of recovery that does not work for 95% of people who try it.
So give it a second thought my friend, I would suggest you do anyhow...If you don't, i can assure you i won't be making any videos and posting them on "youtube" in order to persuade the public away from your opinions, it's just not necessary. AA's don't force our opinions on anyone, nor do we claim to have a monopoly on recovery.
If you do not think AA has a monopoly on recovery, why have you spent the last few minutes trying to persuade me a) that I need it, and b) that AA should be free of any criticism or scrutiny and that to even doubt AA is wrong? Slight contradiction there.
Those statements have been entirely fabricated by you....and i think you know that. However, we'll always be there if you do decide that you need help...otherwise...i promise we'll leave you the fuck alone.
No, they are not fabricated by me – I am not alone in believing these things, and in fact many other people have started to expose this for what it is. I think I have hit a nerve with you – after all you clearly live your life by AA’s dogma and when someone comes along and uses reason over faith to expose the flaws in your way of recovery, it must be a real pain in the arse. Oh well, I will remember how spiritual you are if I ever consider returning to AA and waging a war on myself again.
By the way, you appear high in your video... Good luck, and God bless.
I appear high in my video? Which one did you watch? Cheap shot – and one that makes this ludicrous message backed up with no facts even more deluded. I am going to refrain from such childish accusations, but I would suggest that if you want to be a better friend to AA that you start to debate like an adult and move away from the kind of playground banter that is used by AA oldtimers to belittle doubters and ‘normies’.
Good luck too and thanks for entertaining me for the last 20 minutes.
J a m e s G
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