WELCOME TO BLAME DENIAL

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"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."  (Henny Youngman)

Letters

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The latest letters are posted on: Page 14 Updated 21/09/08

 

N.B. I will be replying to all of these fully once I have had the time to settle back into my routine. Apologies for the delay - JG.

 

James

Through the Orange Papers, I have just discovered your site, and am going to read through it.
Have you joined the anti-AA yahoo groups?
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/without_aa/

There are others of us out there; I am still in AA (GSR of a meeting in Buckinghamshire) but worried about the lack of intelligent discussion even at Intergroup level, not to mention the failure to address issues that are staring people in the face. I know someone else who is equally critical in the London area, and recently did a chair for him. I am sure that I will leave once I have found a viable alternative and a way to cope with loneliness.
Best wishes

Andrew

Andrew,

Thank you so much for your letters. I have now joined the 12 Step Free one - thank you for your posts about Blame Denial. I agree about the lack of intelligent, reason based discussion about all this. I would love to hear more about your story and your experience of AA and what in particular you feel AA needs to change and whether you believe that is possible. Perhas yourself and I could have that discussion and I could host it on the website? I have considered these things in great detail and I have even discussed them with a friend in AA - see here.

I am interested in setting up a forum myself as an arm of the blamedenial website. Would you be interested in helping me getting it up and running?

Stay in touch,

J a m e s  G

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James,

Thank you for your willingness to speak out.  I recently left AA because I could no longer look at the abuse and exploitation. It's sloganized into acceptability. The abuse can as subtle as slamming (hardly subtle) some one who is struggling with "you need to surrender completely to this program" or as violent as calling police and having some one placed in protective custody. So much for helping the sick and suffering.

I have a lot to say about AA after six years. Alcoholism is the best kept secret in AA.

Thank you again,

DMB

Denise,

Thank you so much for your letter - I am sorry it has taken me so long to reply but I have been away on holiday. You raise some interesting points and I would love to hear more of your story. The site is very new and we need all the support and input we can get. If you have the time I would be most grateful if you could tell me about your time in AA and your story.

If you would not object, I would then like to post your story on my site in the letters section anonymously.

Stay in touch,

J a m e s  G

Hello James:

Hope you enjoyed your holiday.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my experiences.  I have considered writing something but to date I've simply researched what is out there and what is missing.  I believe that a strong negative feminine perspective is absent. If you know of anything please refer me to the information.

What truly saved me in AA is the controversial literature which I read before attending AA(Ragge, Bufe, Ellis,Trimpey and Kasl). Presently, a lot of that information is on line which is wonderful because I gave most of my copies away in treatment!  I have never sponsored any women but have given copies of Kasl's book to women. Unfortunately, I suspect that they were unread.  The real tragedy of AA is the pressure to conform coupled with the addicts need to fit in is truly deadly.  I've made list after list of people who stayed in AA (my count includes those present when I arrived and a few who came in when I did) and compared it to the confirmed dead.  I don't need to tell you what I found..the death rate is staggering. I've also seriously looked at those people who keep 'coming back' to a program that doesn't work for them, has never worked for them and if they keep trying to work what has never worked for them...they too may die.

Did AA work for me? I've often said that I made AA work for me rather than working for AA.  I no longer know what is true for me.
I've never had a sponsor or did step work, I think the 12&12 and the BB are some of the worst literature ever published and perhaps the most harmful to the human spirit.  I've never owned either one, but ironically I'm thinking about purchasing copies of both now!
Can I turn away and not turn my back on the problem?  I don't know the answer to that either.  I do know that my anger was turning into rage and that wasn't good for me or anyone else. I'll leave you with the following quote from an essay entitled, "The Power of Anger in the Work of Love" by Beverly Wildung Harrison:

"Anger expressed directly is a mode of taking the other seriously, of caring.  The important point is that where feeling is evaded, where anger is hidden or goes unattended, masking itself, there the power of love, the power to act, to deepen relation, atrophies and dies."

I've always been a proponent of anger...self-righteous or not...as long as it's used wisely. Without it the human race would have died out a long time ago ...with it..social reform happens.

Thank you again for your wonderful efforts.

Regards,

Denise

Denise,

Thanks for taking the time to write that - I will reply to it soon but I wanted to post it in the meantime as I believe it might help many people.

Kind regards,

J a m e s G

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Hello,

I just wanted to thank you for creating a very cool site.
I heard about it from a guy named Andrew on the Yahoo 12step-free discussion group.
I spent twelve years in AA myself and left almost four years ago. I still struggle with deprogramming, and can really relate to your interpretation of things.
Anyway, greatly enjoyed your site, and look forward to anything new you may add.

Thanks.

Rick.  

Rick,

Thanks for your email. It would be wonderful to hear more about your experience if you have the time. The site is new and we need all the support we can get. If you are happy with it, I would like to post it on my letters page. Let me know what you think.

Thanks again, and please stay in touch.

J a m e s  G

Hi James,
I don't mind if you want to post my remarks on your letters page. The more forums where alternative opinions of AA can be expressed, the better, as far as I'm concerned.
My story isn't anything especially unique or different than many others who got caught up in the recovery treadmill while going through a vulnerable period in their lives.
I came from an extremely dysfunctional family background, I was the youngest of four boys, our father died when I was two, my mother suffered severe depression, and my brothers and I suffered the effects of all those things. I have had two older brothers commit suicide, and the third died of natural causes a few years ago.
I started abusing alcohol and other drugs in my late teens and started a pattern that would last until I was in my mid thirties.  After going through a painful divorce in 1989, I made up my mind that I wanted to change.  Pardon the expression, but I hit bottom.
I was miserable and ashamed of my past behavior, and made up my mind that I was going to straighten myself out, but I just didn't know how.
I first turned to a family assistance program that was under the auspices of my employer at that time.  They were the ones that persuaded me that I needed to go through treatment for my drug and alcohol abuse, so I did.   That treatment program turned out to be my introduction to the world of steppism. I didn't even know what AA was at that time.  I went to a handful of meetings while still going through that program, and found it repulsive. I argued with the treatment counselors that I felt no need for AA, and told them I thought it was ridiculous. 
I left treatment, and stayed sober on my own for about eight months, but continued to go to aftercare.  The pressure from aftercare counselors to return to AA was pretty intense.  I had one minor relapse after about eight months, and decided that they must know what they are talking about after all, and returned to AA and stayed for the next twelve years.
I really relate to your description of being at war with one's self. I think that is a pretty apt term for what happens in step programs.  I never felt completely at ease there, but I fell in with a pretty decent home group, and largely used it for a social club as much as anything.  During those years, I held down a good job, and returned to school. Those things meant nothing as far as AA was concerned. I was chided more than a few times for not making enough meetings. 
I never seriously worked the steps, although I did make one cursory attempt early on.
I couldn't accept that I was insane, or somehow inherently defective.  I didn't really have much problem with all the God stuff, it just wasn't a big deal to me at that time.
I only had one sponsor, and he became just more of a friend than anything, and I never attempted to sponsor anyone else because I didn't feel qualified.
I now think the reason I lasted as long as I did was because I was only skating on the surface. I stayed busy with other things, AA was not the center of my life for most of those twelve years.  That all changed a few years ago when I was offered a early retirement package from my job.  I had time on my hands then to fully think and consider the AA ideology and my continued involvement there.  I became very miserable during my last couple of years, and I just kept my mouth shut and observed more and more.
I saw nothing but hypocrisy everywhere I turned. I saw people who stayed stuck because AA encourages people to do so. I realized  that many of those people had serious mental issues that were not being addressed in any meaningful way, or in fact, were actually getting worse because of the anti-psychology attitudes that prevail in the rooms.  The more of all of these things I realized, the sicker I felt at my own hypocrisy for staying and being a part of it.  I couldn't do it anymore.
I found a competent therapist who played a great part in helping me to grow to a point of psychological independance, and he did so without my even realizing it was happening. 
I quit my home group one week shy of celebrating twelve years. I knew if I stayed and let them celebrate that, it would be that much harder to leave.
Sorry for the length of this, but I don't know how to cut it any shorter.
Anyway, thanks again for your site, I think you are doing a great service.

Rick.  

Rick,

Wonderful letter and no need to apologise for length. I will reply soon but as with the email above, I think this might serve to help some people so I am going to post it before I reply.

Thank you for a wonderful letter.

J a m e s G

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Hi, my name is Steve and I am an ex AA member. LOL A link to your site was posted on a yahoo group I founded and am co owner of and I looked at your site and went WOW!  I actually got kicked out of AA for expressing views that were true. I refused to say I was powerless except when I chose to drink and that is one of my beliefs that caused me trouble in AA as the belief that as long as we choose no to drink, then we are not powerless. The man who posted your link said he invited you to our little group and if you choose to join, you will be another well needed asset. We are simply called without_aa. We started out just being a gripe session, but are now being more and more a support type group. I really appreciate your site. I at times felt like I was the only one who could see AA for what it is. I just want to add something that by reading your first page, I know that you are aware of this also, but AA accuses anyone that talks against the program, or even questions things as killing alcoholics, but I found it is AA itself that kills. I had some relatives in the past who had died of alcoholism and after being in AA only 4 short months I began to think they died because they did in fact believe they were powerless.  I went to AA believing I did have a problem and that it would not hurt to have help with staying sober. I never really felt powerless except when I choose to drink, so I wanted help in wanting to not drink.  I was bragged on a lot because I had much quicker success than most in the program and my sponsor had to do very little to help me, in fact when he tried to help is when he hurt. Anyway he finally told me to leave, but not in a nice way and I did because I was fed up with all the teachings of AA which you are supposedly can take what you can use and leave the rest, but I was forced to take what I wanted to leave.  I think you are doing a good work and I do not know if you will join our little group or not, but either way, please keep doing this, it is a very much needed thing you are doing  Oh I spent May 22,1991 till September 14,1991 in AA and I did drink some more just because I was challenged to do so if I felt that I could stop drinking without AA. My sponsor really believed that if I drank, I would be forced to go back to AA or die, so I accepted his challenge. I started drinking again sometime in December 1991 and  I did realize that I could not drink at all, of course I already knew this and why I though AA could help, but I nearly died in AA which I won't bother you with the details just now, I decided to get drunk one last time on my birthday Feb.29,1992 and I did and I have not drank since. Thanks.

Steve Thrash (Name printed by request.)

Steve,

Thank you for your letter - may I post it on my site please? I think it will be very helpful for people to hear of your experience. It would be even better to hear a little more of your story.

Sorry for the delay in my reply ; I have been away on holiday.

I hope you are well and please stay in touch.

J a m e s  G

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James
my first meeting well it soon became obvious that there was a click i listened hoping that someone would explain how the steps were going to help me! i was in a terrible state of mind dts etc and needed a more one to one involvement at that time
a few months later when i questioned the steps it was if i were the devil himself
the week after i left and yes i did relapse
in the course of my business i came into contact with a member he asked how i had been i told him about my relapses he said that us alcoholics can never leave the AA
and must adhere to the steps
that made my mind up that the AA was not for me it smacked of being a cult that you cant leave
through sites like  yours and other meeting groups iam now sober
i did fall a number of times but iam there now

best regards  and thank you for a great site

Paul h 

Paul,

Firstly well done on your sobriety. How many meetings did you go to? Did you have a sponsor? Sounds like you were lucky to me. I got into the whole treatment, sponsors, steps, step meeting, big book study groups, etc ouch.

One of the most interesting aspects of your email is that you have stayed sober with other groups. What are these? I get so many people saying I offer no alternative, but I want people to choose what suits them. It would be great to have a letter from you sharing your experience of an alternative that has worked.

Is it ok to post your letter on the site?

Thanks again,

J a m e s  G

dear James
yes of course you can print my letter
i went to about 20 meetings of AA and they were fighting to be my sponsor
the guy who became my sponsor was OK at first then the steps came (i never wanted to join a church group or a cult / sect )
i needed people to talk to about my problems what had happened to me the last thing i wanted  was a bible study class
eventually after i left i found my self in hospital after vomiting blood my wife called the ambulance but refused to go with me (not there again )my youngest daughter dropped somethings off for me left them with a nurse   i had bled from my oesophagus  well now i was on my own on discharge from hospital i had to go to my GP
 he suggested a meeting group run by the windsor clinic at fazackerly hospital Liverpool
this was what i needed they wanted to no about me from there i was put in touch with an outreach worker who came to see me at my home
 himself being belonging to our group of many guess what no rules no steps no big book
just advice no hugs or prayers at the end of our (little chats)
i am sure there are many people who get a lot of help out of AA but not for me
i also am aware that i had a good GP and may live in an area were these support groups exist
one GP at my practice i seen in the early days told me to stop drinking and pull myself together  if only!
i have used the Internet to speak to other groups in many countries we all have the same problem no matter were we live and i have found many who have been frightened off by AA
i think your site makes people aware what they may be getting into when you first admit you have a problem you probably dont no of any one else to reach out to
and then they have got you

best regards
Paul h

PS keep up the good work

Paul,

Great letters - thanks for all the compliments about Blame Denial, but above all for taking the time to tell us about your experiences both in and out of AA.

Hang in there and stay in touch,

J a m e s G

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Hi James

I'll go through your email pint by point. I imagine I will be very blunt. So I'll state here – no offence is intended. But I find pussy-footing around leads to waffle, so I won't indulge in it! :)

I am very much able to separate blunt people from people who are trying to have an open discussion and I am sure that your intentions are good. You have proven to be a friendly person; that is all I ask. However that does not mean I will agree with all your points and in turn I may appear blunt too but in the interests of rational debate I think this is something that is healthy to address at this stage.

Where does it say in the BB that AA is the only way to recovery? Not arguing – it's just that I've missed it. It does say that if you don't follow the path thoroughly, this path won't work for you, but I'm not aware of any statement of 'do this or die.'


When I read that line I thought, "I can prove her wrong on this." Then I read what I had written to the intro of my site and realised you had included ' Not arguing – it's just that I've missed it.' I respect that but here is ONE of the lines that states it very clearly - a lot of what Bill Wilson writes is open to interpretation but I am afraid this is not:

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles. (Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Bill  Wilson, page 174.)

Admittedly that is not in the Big Book but it is in the 12 and 12. If you want some other examples of subtle undertones in the actual Big Book then I can provide them. I would add however that in many meetings one of the slogans is 'Work the Steps or die.' It is also often said in meetings that to drink is to die and then members will go on to say that if you do not work the Steps you will drink – the message is not as direct but the end result is the same. I am not disputing that for some this might be true, but to make people believe it is true may actually make it become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I can also provide research that proves alcoholics sent to AA by the courts in the US are more likely to binge drink having been to AA than they were before – this would support my view that instilling the notion of powerlessness in people is only effective if they act on it. If they are made to believe it, but then go on to drink, it could be devastating. With AA's success rate at 5%, we have to ask what happens to the other 95% and how many of those become casualties of the step one self fulfilling prophecy. I want to say as well that I do not want to convince you that for you to drink is not to die – not at all. If you believe that, then that is fair enough and something that might help to keep you sober, but for a lot of people who attend AA that is not the truth. Maybe Bill Wilson was right, maybe he wasn't, because when he wrote the Big Book and 12 and 12 he was writing it for rock bottom alcoholics, but because of AA's 12 th Step many people end up in AA who might actually be problem drinkers as opposed to hard line alcoholics. A friend of mine who is not in AA wrote to me about my site and commented, 'Why diss an organisation that gives a crutch to a man who has lost his leg?' I thought long about that and replied, 'Agreed, but what if that organisation also cuts off the leg of some men, and then gives them a crutch?' Step One may create alcoholics as opposed to diagnosing them in many people. (One slogan that really intrigues me is the one that states 'AA can't prevent a relapse but it can ruin one', It's interesting…no point to be made there but wanted to add that in case you had any thoughts on it. What do you think of the one that says, 'No one ends up in AA by mistake'? In AA all you have to be to considered an alcoholic is show up to one meeting – how many people have you ever turned around to and said, 'Hmm maybe you are not an alcoholic?' I always thought it would be interesting to get someone to go to a few meetings who had only ever drunk a few drinks in their life, just to see what was said to them. Is it not the case that the assumption is that anyone who walks through the doors must be an alcoholic that fits Bill Wilson's description? We cannot make a diagnosis of this nature based on assumptions. I even know people who attend AA who have never touched alcohol.)


If we are alcoholic we are dysfunctional. It is insane to drink when it brings no enjoyment, only disaster. This insanity will have crept in somewhere in childhood. Alcoholism is not the same thing as alcohol abuse, which people can move on from. Alcoholism is a mindset – an obsession with booze which usually means a wish to run away or not face up to stuff. Why else would we paralyse our minds with poison?

Does that mean anyone who smokes cigarettes is dysfunctional? I enjoyed a lot of my drinking, in fact most of it. I am a pleasure based human being and if I get no reward from doing something, I stop doing it, hence I stopped getting drunk. I avoid physical pain at all costs, and emotional pain too. Suggesting this insanity will have crept in during childhood cannot be true for all. Of course we learn more as children as we are more open to learning as we have a greater need to learn, but people can become insane later on in life. If we look for trauma in the childhood of most humans we can find it. Of course many people suffer things in their childhood that lead to 'insanity' later on in their lives, but suggesting that anyone who is 'insane' is so because of something that happened in childhood cannot be wholly accurate for all. (Please do not take this following statement the wrong way, but I could just as easily prove that all those people who display signs of insanity ate chocolate as children – that does not prove chocolate was the cause of insanity, it quite simply shows they all ate chocolate. If I could show that all those regarded as 'sane' had not eaten chocolate, and all those that were had, then that would go some way to support such an argument. I am trying to highlight how a perceived connection does not always mean that connection is right. I want to remove that but I won't because that is what I am thinking and I want open debate. This is not about proving me right, or anything I say as right, but rather reaching some truth.) I admit I want to run from problems, but with a rational head I know that to run from my problems is self-defeating. Many problems are opportunities in disguise. If all we experience in life is ease and success, where do we get our sense of growth or achievement? Do you believe people can learn from experience, and thus their mistakes? In fact, is there anything worth learning in life that can be taught, to borrow the words of Oscar Wilde? Maybe alcoholics are not addicted to alcohol, but rather suffer from an inability to learn from the consequences of their mistakes, or excesses? (Just a question.) That might go some way to explaining why alcohol is only mentioned once in the steps. I am not even sure alcohol is the problem for alcoholics myself, unlike problem drinkers, but rather, the warning sign to a much deeper issue – if you read my letters I make this point clear. However AA will insist that anyone who ends up in a meeting is an alcoholic. Using the research on the placebo effect of medication, bearing in mind alcohol is a drug, you can make people believe that a drug has a certain effect on them even though it doesn't ( i.e. you tell a person if you take this drug this will happen). I want to ask you if it is possible that AA's Step One could have that same effect on people? Even if you think it is possible that it could on merely one person, I want to know your answer to that question. If you do believe it is possible, then you will see how a belief in Step One might end in the premature death of a problem drinker, as opposed to an alcoholic, who drinks and believes he or she is powerless over alcohol when in fact they might be problem drinkers. At the same time, is it not possible that once this belief is instilled, that a problem drinker may actually become an alcoholic prior to dying? (Remember what Bill Wilson states in the 12 and 12 (…signs his own death warrant) and the slogans in meetings.) PS In all honesty I am not entirely sure AA can help ALL hard line alcoholics either - I am not even convinced that that is its primary purpose anymore.

Isolation – alcohol enabled me to get past isolation, until the end when it backfired because I became unreliable when pissed. But the truth is the isolationist tendency was there all along. What I see now was that it stems from a) childhood damage, which led to b) not growing up – by this I mean that I didn't know myself. I drank because I didn't like the bit I did know, and because I was ignorant. IMO we drink because we want to. I didn't know why I wanted to – so couldn't stop. The program of AA showed me why in a way that bucket loads of therapy never did. It showed me the defects I was running away from. It didn't tell me to wallow in them – QUITE THE REVERSE.

I thought AA told us we drank because we were powerless over alcohol? OK AA might say we pick up the first drink because we are resentful, envious, etc. (although the Big Book also adds that there is no human defence against the first drink – see quote below in bold.) but it actually says we cannot stop (and thus we continue) because we have an allergy to alcohol and a physical, mental, and spiritual disease – threefold illness.( "The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power." (AA Big Book – Bill Wilson - Chapter 3) Don't you find it intriguing a group like AA, which is described as a self-help group, should say that? That makes it very clear that willpower alone is not enough in the eyes of AA, but what if someone cannot believe in the kind of Higher Power that shares his/her or it's power to stop us drinking?))

Recovery: recovery in AA terms does not just mean not drinking. In fact that is a tiny part of it. Step one is the only one that mentions alcohol. The rest is about determining how to live and become a balanced and useful member of society.

I used to quote that at sponsees and doubters the same – but I now believe this is because it is not about alcoholism per se, but rather a conversion to Bill Wilson's, and thus Frank Buchman's, belief in Moral Rearmament or 'Soul Surgery'. After all they also sold the whole powerless thing. Have you done any research on The Oxford Group (later renamed Moral Rearmament)? They had something called the 'soul surgery, 'a  process which consisted of the following - CONFIDENCE, CONFESSION,  CONVICTION, CONVERSION  and  CONSERVATION. Bill Wilson based the 12 Steps on this process. Step 11 is clearly a reference to conversation, Step 4 and 5 to confession, etc. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, but I think it is important people acknowledge the religious roots of the 12 Steps.

I do wonder here about your need to spend a great deal of time and effort being quite vitriolic about AA. It works for some. If it doesn't they can leave. Most do – they don't feel obliged to stay, or sucked in by a cult, or anything else. They just leave. And I don't give a damn whether they stay or go – it's up to them.

Again, I respect you for asking this in a civilized manner. I think my answers above will go someway to explaining why. Maybe the fact you do not 'give a damn whether they stay or go' is one reason why you have not seen the damage AA can do. I do not want to get personal on this point because it would reduce this civilised debate, but I must say I have known people for whom a belief that they are powerless may have contributed to their premature death. (I can't stop or control this and I don't believe in a Higher Power, so there is nothing I can do - instilled thinking from AA...)

I KNOW there are other ways to recover. Don't doubt it. The ones I tried didn't work for me. My biggest concern with your site/postings is I don't see a recovery plan here. Just a rant against AA which is not helpful IMO. Sorry if the word rant offends you – but that's how it reads to me.

I think it is a rant too, by a sore person (and AA will have you believe that resentment is wrong, but come now, there must be times when it is justified – (I won't use obvious examples). How does one convey a message of disapproval in a fairytale way? I am hardly selling roses to people on there. One of the reasons I do not offer an alternative is because I want to encourage people to explore the options for themselves. I am not convinced it is always helpful to tell people what they need or what their problem is; sometimes listening to them, and asking them what they need might also be beneficial (Notice I am saying either way may work, but we need to see the benefit in both) – but then again it might not, but this is for the individual to decide. People have asked me for years what they should say to their friends who drink too much, and I have always said, 'Get them to a meeting.' Last week a friend called me and asked the same question – dilemma!' A long pause ensued, and I said, 'Have you ever asked him what the problem is and then listened to him, or have you always tried to tell him what it is?' I'll keep you posted' We cannot make assumptions and tar everyone with the same brush. This is not a one size fits all problem in my opinion; we need to stop cutting the foot to fit the shoe. If we are going to send someone to AA then we need to be sure they are alcoholics and not problem drinkers, or even one off over-indulgers. (In the US one DUI (drink driving) results in mandatory participation in a 12 Step program.)

You say you are leading a productive life. I'm sure you are, but what I have seen is destructive. I repeat – I have heard no productive suggestions from you about how to deal with alcoholism.

That makes me feel bad and genuinely made me stop for a moment and think but only because I respect you, and as silly as it sounds, I do. However there was a time when I would have viewed what I am saying as destructive so I cannot take it personally. To use the defence that it takes a lot of courage to do what I am doing would be lame. It doesn't really, simply because I believe in the freedom of thought and expression. I respect alcoholics and problem drinkers a like and as such I believe they should be entitled to the same freedoms as everyone else. They should be allowed to hear/read what I, or anyone else, has to say about our experience of the 12 Steps and AA. I don't even know what the outcome of all this might be, I might even be proved completely wrong, but by facing these doubts and confronting them in the public domain, we might be able to reach some conclusions that either support my current view or disprove it. If all this ends in a firm reinforcement of AA and the 12 Steps I would be just as happy as it would if it ended in proving otherwise – as I keep stating I am open minded, hence I want this debate. After all questioning something does not mean we have to remove it – it might actually have the opposite effect of proving its worthiness. I think this is one of AA's biggest weaknesses; it is very hard to question the program or anything in the rooms without being silenced, or labelled, ill, or in denial, or even worse, constitutionally incapable of being honest.  


You suggested I am not strong willed. Bollocks! I said I have no will-power where alcohol is concerned. I don't. But I do not believe I am powerless in other areas. Far from it!


Ok here is one I have to disagree with – I believe in your will entirely but AA does not. AA tells us we are 'powerless over people, places and things.' Step 3 makes us hand our wills and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Once again, I am sorry for assuming you practiced step 3. Do you practice any of the other steps?

If I had to guess, I would say that you have some deep problem with the God thing about which you are very bitter – and you're taking it out on AA.

I am a very spiritual person who was born and grew up in the Far East. I have no issue with God or a Higher Power – but if he/she or it wanted us to follow his/her/it's will I am sure he/she or it would make it more apparent and if he/she or it didn't, can we be faulted for not acknowledging it? I am not the centre of the universe at all: I did not choose when I was born, which family I was born into, and I continue to be subjected to forces outside of myself. But if life was about following a program, then life would have to be reduced to something meaningless. Everyone must find their path and until anything is proved, forcing oneself to believe in another way would be the opposite of 'Ignorance prior to investigation' and would become 'admiration prior to investigation.' If we thwarted any man that dared question the status quo we would put an end to evolution as we know it, and the only thing that can replace that is devolution. Disagree with me, or us, as much as you like, but I beg of you not to silence us before you have entered into some kind of reasoned debate with us. I know there are people who disapprove of some of AA's principles for the wrong reasons, and there are also those that approve of them for the very same wrong reasons, but we are not all the same.

The higher power of my understanding is that awesome strength within – also a part of my brain that I didn't use sufficiently when drinking. Logic, reason, wisdom – all given to us by nature, but smothered by insecurity and fear which makes us do insane things like drink to excess over and over and over until it holds no enjoyment at all for us, only hell. This is my view of a higher power, I don't expect anyone else to share it – although they are welcome to, but I sure as hell don't expect them to write it off as nonsense or dangerous. It is not a view that has been prescribed by AA. It is my own considered opinion – it fits in with AA though. No-one in AA has judged me because of it.

So you do believe in yourself? I am not entirely sure AA would endorse your belief of a Higher Power – but I sure as hell do. In fact you almost summed up my belief in what has helped me, better than I can. Why don't you go and tell members of AA you believe in yourself and see what happens – even better share that in a meeting. If you feel as though you can believe in yourself and practice the steps, then do it. I will admire you for it; in fact more than admire you for it. Then again having had some reasoned debate with you, I do believe you can. (I believe there are some very good aspects to the Steps, which I continue to practice. It is Step One that is really dangerous. The others can also be dangerous, especially Step 4, 5 and 12.) You are not typical of AA membership. Gi, I am not trying to convert anyone to my views, I just want those who have been shamed for leaving AA because they believe it is not for them, to have a voice. It took a 10,000 word letter backed up by a thorough three month investigation to be sure that I was supported by even my own family in leaving AA. You say people can just leave AA and be done with it, but that is not the truth. After treatment centre family programs that told my family I would die without AA and that I was insane, backed up by a Step Nine carried out under the 'fake it to make it' stage, it was very hard for me to leave AA. I even considered, extremely briefly, leaving the country and getting a new identity. That is the most insane my thinking has ever got and that was when I was sober AND IN AA. I sat and looked out of the window one evening and said to myself, 'James there is no way you can remain credible and leave AA after all the things you have been told to believe and have passed on to your friends and family.' I cried. I cried some more, and then I realised I had a choice and so did my family. I could leave AA and they could believe in me – for a moment it seemed possible. I believe I realised that the buck stops with me and that it was time for me to grow up and take responsibility for James. Something I have never been able to do.  I am not saying everyone is the same, but that was my experience. I don't like the words blame or denial hence I chose them as the name for this site. Things that are unfair have happened to me. I have also been wrong, even bad, at times.  but I have a choice in how I deal with them. That choice involves turning the 'negative' emotion caused by them into something positive. Just because everyone says you are wrong does not mean you are, and vice versa. Look at the many Christians in AA who believe in Jesus for example – whom I have no opinion on – if Jesus had followed the belief of all those around him, then he too, would continue to be misunderstood. He followed his heart and as far as a way of life is concerned, he has created a way for living I believe is inherently good for society, and thus all of us. But, that does not mean I believe he was sent down by God as the son of man. I take the good as well as the bad, see my truth, and make it useful – this is not something AA allowed me to do. If AA allows you to do this, then stick with it. I have never told you otherwise. If life is better for you because of AA and you want to share this with us, that is truly great. But what if it was not? Spare a thought for the rest of us. I suppose you could say it was because we had not 'worked it,' but, who knows, maybe it is not that simple – but then again, you'd better keep it simple. (Oh yeah, just in case you think I believe I am comparable to Jesus; I don't – I just needed to use an example. I could have used anyone but we do not know any of the same people.)

This is sent in the spirit of debate, and not with any malice. Once again, I hope you don't mind the blunt speaking!


Not at all. I admire you for having the courage to talk to me. Occassionally I am flooded with self-doubt and questions of whether I might be wrong, and if I am, what the consequences of expressing my belief might be. I then watched the confession session videos and saw how painful it was for me to speak out against all this. For a second I thought I was wrong, but then I reminded myself that I have a right to say what I think and not for my benefit but because history has shown that anyone who questions the status quo of any institution can only serve to benefit society as long as that institution means well. After all if someone publicly doubts a cause is that not the best opportunity for that institution to silence its doubters?

Actually all this boils down to one question; is there really anything I could ever say, or indeed do, to prove to you I do not need the 12 steps or AA? I ask that not for my sake, but for the sake of all the people who do not belong there in my opinion. I have been told I am sick since the age of 19. When I stopped believing that, and stopped telling myself I am ill, I stopped feeling sick – I began to feel well again. AA has its opinion of people like me, the ones that do it without AA – let me share my opinion of AA.

Best wishes,,
Giselle

Kind regards,

J a m e s  G

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Orange,

Thanks for all your help -- it is much appreciated. I liked your reasons for not replying due to the nice weather -- it is so refreshing to hear of someone who is able to enjoy themselves without feeling guilty and why the hell not? Enjoy the sun!

I had a tough letter from a friend in AA who I respect. I do not respect his views but he is a good man and means well but he is caught up in all this as well but he is more open-minded than most. I am new to all this and as such I am not sure I used the right arguments or facts. Please let me know and feel free to post it on your site. To see the letter go here. <http://www.blamedenial.co.uk/Lettersaafriend1.html>

I really hope the UK is able to catch on to the truth like the US has with your site -- that is my main objective with all this.

Hoping for more sun your way...

J a m e s G

PS I am soon to release the video Confession Session Part 2 -- will keep you posted. Adding links on the Orange Papers to my site have really helped both the site (and thus the cause) and my belief in myself and my thoughts. Sometimes I feel like I might be wrong but hearing from other people who feel the way we do really does a lot to reverse that damned step 2. Did you doubt yourself fleetingly at times when you first started out? I never doubt myself totally, but at times I ponder and AA dogma comes back for a moment but I KNOW it is not right.

Hi James,

It's good to hear from you again. As you probably already guessed from this slow answer, I've been enjoying the sun again. And the company of a bunch of little people:

Taking your last question first, of course I have doubted myself at times. Many times, I would have to double-check the situation to make sure I wasn't going off on a tangent, or being too crazy. I think that is actually a sign of sanity. A sane, realistic person pauses and does a reality check every so often. A narcissist with delusions of grandeur doesn't. (Does that sound familiar? Can you say 'Bill W.'? "We, who have recovered from serious drinking, are miracles of mental health.")
About your letter on Blamedenial --

The people who say in letters to me that I changed their minds about things also often mention the fact that they were wondering about things for a while before they stumbled across my web site, and then something that I wrote made things clear for them. Such people had actually already changed their minds before they ever got to my web site; they just didn't know it yet. Reading something that I said merely crystalized something that they were thinking but had not quite put into words yet.
Those people were willing to change their minds. In fact, they already had. On the other hand, the people who write to tell me that I'm all wrong and don't understand A.A. at all are quite unwilling to even think that A.A. might be less than wonderful. I don't think I've changed the minds of very many of them at all. I only know of one, ever. One guy wrote to say that he had debated with me a few years earlier, and then gradually came to agree with me. Otherwise, forget it. Not gonna happen.


One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. The bamboozle has captured us. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
== Carl Sagan

So when I carry on those debates with the true believers, I don't expect them to change their minds. I do it for the benefit of the other people, the innocent bystanders who are watching the show. They can read the whole debate, both sides, and learn from it. (Hence there is no point in carrying on private email debates, so I don't do that.)

Ummm, I'd like to know where he gets that. I've read a lot of things about alcoholism, and never saw any doctor or psychiatrist claim that alcoholism was a catch-all of other mental illnesses. In fact, the bible of psychiatrists in the USA -- The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders -- doesn't even list "alcoholism" as a mental illness or disease at all. That is quite deliberate, not an oversight. They list "alcohol abuse" and "alcohol dependency", but there is no "alcoholism". See the actual page here
Now I agree that people who are compulsively drinking themselves to death usually have some underlying mental illness, but that sure doesn't mean that "alcoholism includes all of the above" mental disorders. It doesn't even mean that there is any such disease as "alcoholism".
That leads us right into the next item: The American Medical Association:

The AMA has a very sordid history. Morris Fishbein, the guy who built the AMA up into the empire that it is, was convicted of racketeering for practicing blackmail on the pharmaceutical companies and forcing them to buy expensive full-page advertisements in his JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association), or else he wouldn't let the AMA recommend their medicines.
The AMA decision to recognize "alcoholism" as a "disease" was a political decision, not a medical decision. They were just mollifying some noisy Steppers who wanted alcoholism declared to be a disease. What was most outrageous is that the AMA didn't bother to actually define the "disease of alcoholism" themselves. They let a joint committee of two A.A. front groups write the definition for them. So of course the definition is very strange. It doesn't even say that alcoholism is caused by drinking alcohol. Hence the AMA has zero credibility on the subject of alcoholism.
See the whole gory story here.

Have a good day.

== Orange

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