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"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." (Henny Youngman)
Letters and Comments
I am going to figure out a new way to post letters as the old way is no longer viable.
NEW LETTERS - Updated 04/01/08
old letters here
An old one I never responded to properly to open the first letters page since Blamedenial has reopened.
Hello James,
I am 32 years old, and I left AA about a week ago. I joined in the beginning of January of this year.Hello – nice to hear from you. It is always nice to hear from people of similar age to myself.
I just read your story on the blamedenial site. I did not spend as much time as you in AA, but like you, I "worked" the steps twice, did two 4th & 5ths. (this in only 3 months). I got in with the Big Book thumper crowd, that works the program "old school", going through the steps quickly, and "spiritually tag teaming" newcomers.The more and more I learn about this, the more I feel like I was in with the hardcore crowd too. That said, I think the level of damage done by either extreme is ultimately the same – one is a catalyst for the other; they are not entirely different modes. One is watered down, and the other is concentrated. The ends are the same whatever way we look at it.
It felt great for a while, until my mind cleared and I realized I was losing myself.Yes I had a similar feeling, as expressed on my AA writings page – despite having the appearance of being very personal, that letter was written so soon after my departure from AA, it bares little reflection to the person I now feel like I am today. AA does not do ‘personal.’ In our step 4 we are told who we are; we do not reveal who we are – the trick used is to draw parallels with our behaviours, providing the illusion that we are all the same damn drunks!
I have to admit that I have lots of fear. I heard the whole jail, institution, death threat thing.Join the club – but that fear has now left me for the most part.
I've been a bit depressed. Did you have any fears after you left? Did you feel like you didn't know what to believe?I think my biggest was realised. I feared I’d make mistakes when I left AA, which was something that scared me because I was so vocal against it. But all that has happened is that I have learned. Sure, some people might use these mistakes against you, but that is better than using your will against yourself. I know which way I’d rather live.
For a long time I was not sure what to believe and as much as I speak out for keeping an open-mind, I am done doing that with AA. Its members refuse to be open-minded, and as such they do not deserve it in return. I think it is healthy to doubt things, but if your experience shows you over and over again that something will harm you, I think it is best to remember that to avoid it happening again.
I've been taught not to trust myself. I ran my life into the ground for 10 years and was extremely self destructive. Now I want so much to be myself, sober.It is possible. AA perpetuates those feelings of self distrust. I would recommend having a look at some of the links on www.morerevealed.com . I, too, at times can be self-destructive - I have also spent a lot of time reading around the subject, and with that I have been able to understand why I seem to be drawn to such behaviour.
I just wanted to put my thoughts out there... I'm sure you're pretty busy but if you could respond, I'd appreciate it. It's a strange kind of limbo I'm in.Thanks for the letter – sorry it has taken me so long to respond proper to you. ‘Limbo’ is indeed the word…
I really enjoy your videos and writing, thank you for everything you put out there.
Thanks for the compliments! I cannot deny I always like to hear from people that get something from my work. I do have a small audience, but a good one nonetheless!
Best,
JenniferRegards,
James G---------------------------------------------------------
JamesG --
I liked your essays. I was on the margin of AA for a time. So, I did not have the opportunity to get involved in steps, sponsors, etc.Thanks for the encouragement – you might want to see my response to another letter I am publishing now – should be above this one on the topic of marginal AA membership. I suppose I could add that the more immersed you are in the program, the more you know how destructive it is when you leave – or maybe even, that the less emerged you are in it, the more you might doubt your reasons for leaving it? Of course, it is horses for courses – everyone is different, and unlike AA, I don’t have that much time for stereo-types, especially when it comes to addiction.
It is clear to me -- from reading about XA -- and observing at the meetings that I went to [about 12 or 16] -- that AA is a very unhealthy place to be. I have learned a great deal about substance abuse, mental health, so called 'recovery', etc.
I could not agree more. When I left AA I was angry, and hence I set up Blamedenial. However, I have moved on from that anger. Much of what is so dangerous about AA has been revealed to me by the treatment I have received from its members - which might seem an odd thing to say. They make it so difficult for you to leave and talk about your negative experience – they silence people unless you agree with them – then they threaten/harass/intimidate you. Many of those in appear so deluded that any one individual with the slightest clarity becomes the one in ‘denial’ when they might actually be the sane ones. How sad.
I am glad that you are describing it; at blamedenial andYouTube. I encourage you to carry on.Oh I will – I am more determined than ever. I am enjoying it now too, because I know it is the right thing to do; whether I am right or not 100% of the time is another thing!!
My main interest is to see to it that AA is described; and, that people have an opportunity to debrief/deprogram from AA.A new blog: truetalesfromalcoholicsanonymous.wordpress.com
You may want to make a link at blame denial.
HI have linked it on this letters page. Thanks for the pointer.
James G
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Hey James,
Yeah, you're pretty cool. I like your videos on YouTube also. There was a post on the educational system awhile back on twelve step free that you made that I really liked alot. I noticed some people gave you some negative feedback on that article, but it was actually a really fine article. It reminded me of a book by Hermann Hesse, "Beneath the Wheel." Keep up the good work, and don't get discouraged, you're making loads of progress.
Best wishes,
GerardGerard,
Many thanks for your response; as I said your post over there has had a huge impact on me. I enjoy making the videos for Youtube – writing for the site is harder because I feel a lot of it has been written already, but another part of me can see the value in another voice, or another resource.
I am still working on that book, and to be fair to the folks over there, I think if I had just posted it in isolation, it would have been better received. I had a lot going on at the time. But thanks again for more encouragement.
Stay in touch,
James G
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Here is an article by Gerard that some of you might like to read:
Parable of a self help meeting
Imagine if you will a world with everything exactly the same as it is now, but for one minor detail. Doctors had not yet discovered how to set and fix a broken leg. Ok, got that in your mind? Here we go.
One nice, sunny day you and a friend decide to go hiking in the mountains. Unexpectedly, at practically the end of your hike when you are approaching the place where you parked your car, you take a nasty fall and break your leg. Your friend helps you hobble down the rest of the way, gets you into the car and drives you home. You're feeling pain. It’s not the end of the world bad, but it is worse than any other pain you ever had bad. Your friend calls his friend and asks what should be done. The friend's friend says, "you're in luck. There is a weekly meeting of the Broken Leg People's Support Group and there is another weekly meeting coming up in about an hour.” What good fortune. Your friend drives you to a store and you buy a pair of crutches. You are taken to the meeting and escorted to an empty seat. You look around and observe that everyone else has a broken leg and crutches and one fellow has two broken legs and a wheelchair. He is the leader. The leader starts the meeting. "Ok, now we'll begin by everyone introducing himself or herself and we'll all get acquainted. My name is Leader, and I am a Broken Leg Person."
"Hi Leader," everyone responds at once. When your turn comes, you fall into step with the others. "My name is Newbie, and I am a Broken Leg Person."
Now that everyone has been introduced the Leader gives his testimony. "Listen, everyone. I know your pain. I have been there." He pauses for dramatic effect. "Twice."
Everyone in the group just stares ahead, mesmerized.The Leader begins. "Now we are going to have a little group counseling, because we're all here for the same reason: we all have broken legs. And I am going to tell you from my own personal history, it does get better... eventually. I've been coming to these meetings for 22 years, and I know it is a lifelong affliction, and I have to live with the pain in my legs for the rest of my life. I am powerless against this affliction. But with the help of the wheelchair, and for all of you, the help of your crutches, and with my search for meaning and guidance from my Higher Power, I've learned to live with it. It's just an illness like diabetes or high blood pressure. And the pain doesn't get too bad as long as I don't ever try to walk. Every day I resist the temptation to walk because I know what a mistake it will be and how excruciating the pain will be. I don't run or jog or play with my children. I know I am not like normal people. I just go about my way in a life of quiet acceptance, because I know research has shown that in any given year, on average, about 1.5 to 2 per cent of the population succumb to broken leg syndrome. Now it is not really known to science why this is, but this group of the population just suffers from this strange disease called Broken Leg Syndrome, (BLS). It just afflicts them. It seems that their coordination is somehow 'haywire' and they just have more of a tendency to fall down and break their leg than normal people. They can't control it, and we don't really know why this is but we accept it because that is the way it has always been.
"It is bad at first and you'll be tempted many times to walk on your broken leg, but the pain will be excruciating. But by attending weekly meetings for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, you'll learn to accept that you are powerless against the affliction of a broken leg. You'll learn to accept your fate. You'll learn to rely on your Higher Power to guide you through the toughest moments, like when your child asks you to play ball with him. But just use willpower to resist the temptation of walking and running and jumping and being like a normal person. We are here to help. We'll give you support, peace and understanding, and acceptance of your affliction. You just have to admit that this affliction has you in its grasp and there is nothing you can do about it. You just live with this THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. But, don't worry, if you just follow the steps, and stick to the meetings, and do the plans which we suggest, you can live a life, even though you suffer from this disease."
Now, how would you feel after going to this meeting? What is wrong with this scenario? Well, the problem is that the Leader is just another person with a broken leg, (or two) like you. He is not a doctor. He doesn't have any scientific knowledge of a cure.
Of course we laugh at this story. When you have a broken leg, you just go to the hospital, have your leg set and put in a cast and in a matter of some weeks, you are cured and you go back to your life. Later, you may break your leg again and go back for another cast, but will the doctor say, 'you have a moral defect, it appears you are a chronic leg breaker. Have you tried calling on your higher power?" Why do addictions have to be any different?I liked that – thanks Gerard.
James G
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Hi James, I cannot thank you enough for re-opening your web site, and for posting on x-steppers. You are a trailblazer in the movement to get the truth out!
I am glad you are pleased; I am enjoying this now – I just don’t like those nutty harassers in AA but it’s a necessary evil!
I left AA after almost 25 years. I was forced into it when I was 23 and had been caught up in the madness until July. Unfortunately, all of those years of involvement has made AA difficult to leave me. These people just will not leave me alone! When I first left they tried to coerce me back in but I wouldn't hear it. They left me alone for a little while, but these past two weeks have been difficult. I have received 5 phone calls from people I always kept an arms length away from me in the program.....to put it bluntly people I didn't like!
AA took a long to leave me too, but more psychologically, rather than in physical proximity like you. It is hard to decipher what are my own thoughts from those that have been instilled by indoctrination whilst being a member of AA.
I would suggest you ask these people not to take contact with you, and if they don’t stop, I would go to the police. You have a right not to receive unwanted phone calls.
My husband picked up the phone last night and I told him to tell the latest one I was unavailable. My dear husband who unfortunately is a devout Al-Anon member tried to make me talk to her. He finally did as I told him to do, but it did cause an argument. For the most part my husband has respected my decision, but I know in the back of his mind he is hoping that I will return to AA. He was upset that I wouldn't take the call, but there was really nothing he could do about it. These intrusions into my life are now causing rifts in my home.
Wow that is an interesting scenario to say the least – that must make life pretty hard at home? I don’t mean to sound flippant here, but maybe his group have told him he is powerless over your decision, and after all, if he was to try and persuade you to go back to AA, would that not be considered controlling behavior? As I wrote that all the madness returned to me like a rush of blood to the head. Note to self - need to do a video on Alanon – thanks for the idea. Oh, do any of your ex AA ‘buddies’ have spouses that go to the same Alanon meeting as your husband? I genuinely feel for you. Please keep us posted on this one.
Will these people ever give up? What is it that my departure would cause such a frenzy? People left AA all of the time when I was there and I don't recall ever hunting them down.
I think you need to warn them that they are treading a thin line in terms of the law.
I would love to write about sponsorship for your site. I was sponsored by a nazi for years, and BECAME one of them myself. I have a few good stories about the hell I was put through and the hell I put others through. I believe sponsorship is one of the most dangerous aspects of AA.
Please do write for the site. I am going to set up a guest writer’s column, and if anyone writes enough, I will consider giving them their own corner, rather like Devin has at MoreRevealed. I think the more opinions and ideas that are available here, the better.
Anyway, if you have any ideas on what I can say to these people I would really appreciate your input. I have e-mailed a few of them AGENT ORANGE'S site, but I am doubtful they even opened it.
It’s always hard to know what to say to people that do not listen, and it’s even harder when they have been programmed not to hear as well – it’s rather pointless. I can just see them holding the phone cursing, ‘If only they’d just get it like I have!’ I’d remind them that you are no longer in AA, and thus no longer on a program, and therefore you have no need to be in contact with them anymore.
Sincerely,
Millie
Regards,
James G
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Hey James,
Appreciate what you've compiled...that's a lot of work! And appreciate much of the "sentiment" and "thinking" you are expressing.
Well as I keep saying this time round, I am enjoying it. When I stopped doing it, I missed it – but I had to take a break and deal with myself, and not the AA way. Life is back on track, and I feel much less anger these days. But thanks for that anyway.
Myself, and my wife, have gone through much of the same questioning, analysis, confusion, bafflement, guilt, disillusionment, ill-feelings, etc., starting early on in our recoveries...which began in both aa and na.
You must have a fascinating story having been on the ‘journey’ with your wife. I wonder whether that would make it easier/harder? I would guess a mixture of the two! Isn’t it great to have our critical thought back? I am so relieved to have lost that black and white thinking!
We started fully emmersed...picked one fellowship exclusively, then did both, then left, stayed away, gone back, gotten fully re-entrenched (me more than her) and finally are coming to the conclusion to withdraw again (as difficult as it may be, or seemingly may be). What a trip huh??!!!
Flushing those messages out of my system was the hardest part of all this for me. I am not sure if you know, but I closed Blamedenial a while ago because I effectively got angry with the people that agreed with me – yeah, I know, it’s nuts! And yet it felt so right at the time. An inability to make a decision and stick to a choice was perhaps the largest hangover I had from AA and NA membership. I admire anyone that has just left the program and never returned. I was not able to do that but I do hear from a number of those that have – they seem well adjusted and reasonable. But, what I was trying to say, in a long winded way, is that I understand exactly what you mean.
Fortunately (I guess) we've been able to maintain complete abstinence...her 13 years...me 12...and have relatively decent lives today compared to how we were both living prior to coming into recovery. So I guess that is good...but so is not getting eaten by a lion...anyhow...what I'm getting at is...
Ha ha – if abstinence is your goal, then you’ve done very well – I am not even sure AA wants its members to be abstinent – well, unless they have given their whole lives to the program and live and breath Bill Wilson. I am glad your lives are better now than they were before ‘recovery’.
Maybe that is not the point. Maybe the point is: How could it have been for us? How could it be for others currently trying to do it in the "12 step" programs who are "making it"? How could it be for those in the "12 step" programs who are not "making it"? How could it be for those who reject the "12 steps" programs and are struggling and dying?
I love that paragraph – I think you just wrote the new creed for Blamedenial. I had few regrets, as I left the rooms younger than most, but that does not mean I do not get what you are saying there entirely. My greatest sadness with the current state of affairs is how our societal acceptance of the 12 Step model is killing off any chance of finding something better? As AA says, ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ I say what utter rubbish; if that were true we’d all still be watching black and white TV. A part of me would feel compelled to leave AA alone if it would repeatedly remind ALL of us that it is not the only way. If this is a disease (which is unproven thus far) and therefore demands medical treatment, any other model would allow for alternatives, and would not feel threatened by them. If you have a headache you can take aspirin or paracetamol or whatever.
What all did we miss while doing our precious time that can't be recovered? The list of questions goes on and I guess you and others like you have just started scratching the surface.
I see what you are saying, and I suspect we all think about that to differing degrees. Part of the reason I put so much time into this is for that – but in the process of leaving the rooms, I have learned much about myself. It is hard to say how things would have turned out either way.
I don't like feeling like I've been duped either and upon my last stab at trying to re-enter and "work the program" I had one nagging thought that wouldn't go away...Why can't we talk about the elephant that is sitting in the middle of the recovery community (to use dysfunctional family-dynamic treatment jargon)...and you've addressed a lot of my frustration on this issue...so thanks...to you and the orange papers...and stanton peele (sp) and the other guy you've mentioned raggea (Ken Ragge) (sp)...and so on...
When I was in the rooms I always wanted to remind everyone that AA was not the only way to recover, but whenever I did I felt so uncomfortable, I gave up. And this was when I was a Big Book thumper!!! Most of what I do is simply building on the work of all those people you mention. I think the greatest value I might add is also a personal touch. I am not afraid to talk about how it felt, but I am trying to make this as factual as possible from now on. I can read all the theory, but sometimes it is just nice to hear the raw emotions that we feel from someone else. It loses me credibility with some, and gains me credibility with others; one of the most important people that make up the latter is myself. AA made me want to please everyone, at least in the program, but now I see how fruitless that endevour truly is.
So thanks again man, for your time, effort, honesty, and genuine concern...what a concept...genuine concern for other human beings...I/we appreciate it.
Some might disagree with you on that genuine concern, but I genuinely do, and why? Because I know what it feel s like to be duped and give away your will to something that is next to useless. And just as you thank me for all my work, I want to thank you for this wonderfully written email.
Also, this last time around of trying to "re-engage" I got the sense that I was loosing my mind so to speak...a thick dull feeling...and I had to just stop all that and remember who "I was" how "I felt" and how "I thought" and low and behold I started feeling better. What a concept. Self. And there are more like it. Will-power. Discipline. Hard work. Critical thinking. Creative thinking. Dreaming. Passion. Anger. Intolerance of things intolerable. Common sense. Planning. Logic. Cause and Effect. Reason. I guess a whole trove of human qualities, attributes, activities that have been floating around this planet for years. Aspects that maybe we were not so bereft of, simply because we had a problem abusing substances. I don't know...or maybe I do...maybe we all do...
Well put – could not do so better myself.
So thanks James. The work you've done has been well received...some new ideas...some clarity of analysis...and some reinforcement and articulation of what we've been thinking, sensing, feeling and suspecting for quite a while.
Well it is emails like this that give me the drive to continue. I am lucky that I have the resources to get this out there, but I would encourage anyone interested in this to do the same. Modern technology has made it easier than many think; in fact without the Internet I would probably be in a meeting now telling everyone how happy I am to be powerless…
Hope you are well, good luck in your endeavors and would like to hear back from you if that is at all possible.
Happy New Year,
Take care, Mark (and A)
Many thanks,
James G
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Youtube Message:
Hey James,
Fist I would like to thank you very much . had it not been for you and Orange, I would not had the guts and information to leave the CULT. Well now i would lik to invite you to this message board that is hosted by the Baltimore Sun over here in the U.S. I posted links to your website and your videos here, and also to Orange's site, and have a pretty good debate going and having you there to add to the conversation would be great.
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/
The thread is titled " Alcoholics Anonymous is harmful " and it is posted the the " Nationals/world, and Locals . Read them and if you feel the need to participate feel free, you will have to join to post.
Thanks again so much.
DanNo problem – I get a lot out of this myself. All the thanks should go to Orange; had it not been for him I too would not have left the rooms.
Interesting thread – I think I shall do my best to stay out of controversial discussions on forums for a while. But I will link it here in case anyone else feels like they want to enter the fray. It started off pretty well… But thanks for posting my links there.http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/showthread.php?t=129864
Thanks,
James G
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In response to the reopening of Blamedenial:
Good. Glad to hear it. I'll check out your video in a while -- I have to switch operating systems as Adobe never made a Flash player for 64-bit Linux, so I can't watch videos from Linux.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== OrangeHa and I know how much you hate Windoze! In answer to a previous question, I use Movie Maker for my AA videos. I like it because it forces me to keep it simple to borrow a phrase from our learned friends in AA!
Nice to hear from you as always – four emails in one day! That must be a record for you.
Enjoy the break; I know how much they are needed when you are involved in this.
Many thanks,
James G
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Youtube message:
what a winer...you taught everything a need to know about AA..Not!
Umm ok – thanks anyway.
James G
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What I wanted to ask you is would you consider co-monitoring X-STEPPERS along with me. I don't have as much time to devote tot he site as I did 4 or 5 years ago when I first went online with it, and people apply for membership all the time, and I thought you might be able recognize som eof them who may be trouble-making steppers trying to sneak in, it doesn't happen often, but I suspect with the site becoming more active lately we will eventually have to deal with some problems. Also, if some of your old nemesis's know you're active again they will probably follow you to X-STEPPERS. All you would have to do is approve new memberships, or not approve certain memberships, monitor the site for flamers, and occasionally step in when a squabble arrises and remind members to be respectful of one another when posting, and if they don't heed the warnings and continue to verbally attack someone, just ban them. I don't put up with the dumb stuff here, and if people make fantastic claims, sometimes I'll challenge them to prove whatever it is their trying to say. So, whattaya' think?
Scott
Having thought about it – I’d love to do it.
Where do we go from here?
James G
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