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"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."  (Henny Youngman)

Letters and Comments

LETTERS 12

 

From Anon:

here ya go - some of these really go along with some of the things you've written on your site.
                                                

 OLD TIME AA

1- It's not old behavior if I'm still doing it.

2- If you're looking to have an image in AA, look around at the meetings you go to and take a look at whom you're trying to impress.

3- An alcoholic is a person who wants to be held while he's isolating.

4- Sobriety is the leading cause of relapse.

5- A treatment center is where you go and pay $15,000 to find out that AA meetings are free.

6- The idea that alcoholics, drug addicts, sex addicts, overeaters, smokers, etc, etc, should all just go to AA Meetings because a disease, is a disease, is a disease...was started by a treatment center that only had one van.

7- This is a 'One Day at a Time' program.  If you are clean and sober today, you are tied for first place in AA.

8- If drinking is interfering with your work, you're probably a heavy Drinker. If work is interfering with your drinking, you're probably an Alcoholic.

9- I often obsessively pursue feeling good, no matter how bad it makes me feel.

10- When I was new, I didn't think I had any obsessions until I started thinking about it.  Then it was all I could think about.

11- How come if alcohol kills millions of brain cells, it never killed the ones
that made me want to drink?

12- From a newcomer reading the 'Promises' for the first time: "We will Comprehend the word cemetery and we will know peace."

13- If God were small enough to be understood, He wouldn't be big enough to be God!

14- If you want to quit drinking; you are going to have to quit drinking.

15-Newcomer: How do I know how many meetings I should attend each week?
Old-timer: Gradually cut back until you get drunk. Then you'll know.

16- I would rather go through life sober, believing I am an alcoholic, than go
through life drunk, trying to convince myself that I am not an alcoholic.

17- Resentments are like stray cats: if you don't feed them, they'll go Away.

18-The difference between a problem drinker and an Alcoholic is that:  (A)When alcohol is taken away from the problem drinker, the problem goes away. (B)When alcohol is taken away from the Alcoholic, the problem begins.

19- Before I came into AA, I was dead, but I did not know enough to lay down.

20- I drank when I was happy. I drank when I was unhappy. Actually, I am a reason to drink.

21- You don't have to be sick to want to get well. But if you don't want to get well, you ARE sick.

22- I can't do His will my way.

23- In order to change the way we feel we need to change the way we act.
There is only one way to coast, and that is down hill.

23- The good news is you get your emotions back; the bad news is you get your emotions back.

24- All we ask is that you completely change your attitude as soon as Possible.

25- I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all.

26-Joy isn't the absence of pain -- it's the presence of God.

Anonymous.

Thank you for those – they are more than interesting and pretty much sum up the war on self.  Number 24 is revealing. One thing I might ask; is that really only representative of AA, or is it in fact the real AA, or if you prefer, the ‘stealth’ AA?

J a m e s  G

James:  Here's a proofread version of the post I just sent to 12SF on your VA study question.

(In response to a post regarding this study - http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/pdf/eNews/Costoffsetyear2.pdf )

The study mostly shows that 12-Step groups are cheaper than
cognitive/behavioural treatments (well, duh).  There was NO CONTROL
GROUP, which would have shown the confounding effect, if any, of
being in the study itself. (How much of any positive effects were
due solely to being paid attention to by the researchers.)  The
subject pool was, at least, a decent size (700+ in each group).
This was a 2-year follow up on a 1-year study.  It was designed
primarily to assess differences in COST over time between the 2
approaches.

There were mostly no significant differences between 12-Step and CB
subjects, with a couple of exceptions:

Significant differences between the 2 groups:

1) 12-Step subjects were significantly "more involved" in 12-step
groups (no! really?)

2) 12-Step subjects talked with "sponsors" significantly more often.
(Since only 12-Step groups employ the use of "sponsors" this is hardly
a surprise.)

3)  While there were NO significant differences in non-alcohol drug
use, there was a higher rate of alcohol abstinence in the 12-step
group (49% versus 37% for cognitive/behavioral treatment subjects) at
year 2. Both of these abstinence figures seem rather high (and this is
why a control group is needed).  The difference is statistically
significant at the p<.001 level. All this means is that there is less
than a 1 in 1,000 probability (p) that the difference could have
occurred by chance.

4) 12-Step group subjects cost less because they use health-care
services less -- ESPECIALLY PSYCHIATRIC SERVICES. The
cognitive/behavioral subjects got more follow-up and used the VA
medical system more often.  The 12-step group believed more in prayer
and "spiritual" remedies and the notion that alcoholism is a "disease."

See the last part of the article ("Discussion") -- the authors do not
overstate their results. They say that most of their statistically
significant differences are obvious and to be expected (#1, 2 above)
and they  discuss reasons why 12-step group subjects may show a higher
abstinence rate, such as: 12-step groups are in every state in much
larger numbers than cognitive therapy.

The study did not assign treatment method randomly. On a first quick
read, I did not see any figures about drop-out rates or mortality.  It
may be there; I just skimmed the article fast.

-Radiogravy

Radiogravy,

Thanks for taking the time to analise that for us. You’ve done a fantastic job. I have nothing to add.

Thanks again,

J a m e s  G

James – please publish:

Mine is an e-mail from the heart and i hope to continue to keep in touch with you.

Nice to hear from you again R.O.D.

I recentley celebrated over a year sober, and got my chip etc. i also kept going to meetings. Im by the book as you know, i found myself thinking "is this it?" - i had a very bad experience shortly after christmas and had drink tipped over me - i drank the next day and then for another 4 days. My so called best friend lambasted me etc i found people in AA tutting, shaking there heads, like they had never drank. I assumed i hadnt done the "work" properly - so i set out on going back on to the "work". my supposed friend assured me he would be very hard on me and called me all sorts of names, egotistical etc.

Interesting – firstly well done on your sobriety. AA is very keen on sobriety time as a way to separate the “well” from the so called “unwell”. I find that not only overly simplistic but wrong. It is revealing to highlight at this point, that the war story society within AA that likes to share how bad they were when they drunk, also wants people to acknowledge their length of sobriety. Both are badges worn in the most visible places within the rooms.  To imply that someone is wiser or more learned because they have more sobriety over someone else is absolutely nonsensical to my mind.  I remember being told that I had ceased to grow emotionally and spiritually as soon as I tasted alcohol at the age of 10, or whatever age it was. Some members even adopt their birthday as the day after they had their last drink. There is no evidence anywhere to prove such assertions and it is not only bad medicine, but it is also self-defeating to believe such rubbish. Perhaps your friend is in need of a Codependence Anonymous meeting if he thinks he can fix you? He he

I found this attitude very nasty, in fact i told him to go and f*** himself. He seemed to be viewing my drinking episode with glee, an opportunity to do it the proper way -show me the ropes [i told you so etc], but then he admitted he used a few puffs every now and then - i think im the only one in AA free of marajuana maintenance.

I cannot comment on the specifics of these events, but it sounds like our friend may have been using that old chestnut that allows us to take out our own feelings of failure on others. AA claims it does not demand perfection but progress, but that is because no one is perfect, although the program places more than enough pressure on its members to offer ‘perfect’ effort when using this program.

I stopped going to AA.

I STOPPED GOING TO AA.

I am glad to hear that you were able to make that choice and take your life back.

I drank a few more times in January.

I decided it was not a good idea - i wasnt weak or selfish or egotistical - i was a damn good bloke who had a good job - still does, is loving and respects his fellows. I just got pissed off with hearing the same crap.

I am sure you are a good man, but that is by the by here – what matters is that you live YOUR life to the full and NOT the one AA wants you to lead; admitting that you are powerless, handing you will and life over to them, and recruiting for the rest of your life. Where is the life in that? I very nearly became like that chap that called you all those names – thank goodness I had the courage to look at the Orange Papers without ignorance prior to investigation.

I found myself questioning all this attendance stuff. I found myself torn between attendance.

No shit! I am amazed I did not figure all this out earlier – listening to the same self-pity and misery day in day out pretending it made me feel better. If anything meetings stopped me; stopped me in every respect. They were a mask, an hour or so to be so focused on being seen to work a good program that I forgot about me. And at times I felt the best way to work a ‘good program’ was to show up admitting how I had screwed up and then share about how wonderful this program was for offering me the solution – credit to the program and another nail in the coffin for my own self-esteem. The solution in many instances simply being a confession of these errors, but in terms of practical ones, they did not exist. Faith healing at its best!

I then realised that AA was my addiction. my whole year of sobriety was very stressful - almost like a race to 1 etc. Dont get me wrong - i appreciate the camaraderie in AA, and the friends - some of them, but i find it full of armchair counsellors and people who dont seem to do anything other than go to meetings.

I could not put it better myself. I ran to AA like I used to run to heroin – then one day a light bulb went off in my head and I put and two and two together and acknowledge that I was still running to a problem; it was AA.

I raised this issue with someone i know - i suggested maybe they could get a job and they would feel great - he was stunned - personal responsibility, perish the thought.

AA is good for a start, a good start - the obsession drove me to drink, it really did.

AA might have been a good start for you, but for many that start never ends and they are unable to leave, either because they become fooled into believing they have to stay or they are too scared to leave in case they “sign their own death warrant”. I completely understand your sentiments, but I have to say that I believe AA does more harm than good, which eradicates any of the individual it may have afforded any of us.

I am happy, sober - for the right reasons - i love my family - i love life, i enjoy the world. Im not bitter or having to gossip about the latest relapse for instance with the chickenhawk steppers outside the meetings. i dunno - im free.

I dont miss the talk of "ban shit dumping" and the re-emergence of book.

Life is good - me and booze and sometime ago sleeping pills just dont get on, we have parted ways.

Oh and since i stopped AA - i stopped smoking!

That’s sounds like a good place to be as a stepper might say he he. I remain angry with AA, hence all the videos I make and this site. Some argue that anger is unhealthy, full stop. I disagree however, and I think through letters like yours, and the contact I have had with people through all this so-called work, I am slowly coming to learn more about life, NOT merely sobriety, than I could ever have hoped to learn by just ignoring this anger. I have also learned how to stand up for myself, which at times has been tough, but I get something from it, otherwise I would not do it.  You would be mistaken if you thought I was an overly confident man; I am far from it, but these days I have some belief in myself, and that seems to have evolved not through ‘love-bombing’ within a group, but by being upfront and listening to as many different points of view as I can.  When I left AA and set up Blamedenial I was terrified of making a mistake, and being wrong, because I thought it mattered to everyone else; it doesn’t really.  Sure it might upset some people, but at the end of the day we are the ones that have to live with the consequences of our choices; that is what it means to be responsible; not handing our wills over to something else there by avoiding all responsibility, as Step three might lead us to believe.

All the best.

R.O.D

Nice to hear from you ROD.

J a m e s  G

Hi James,

Just for me, it is good to see you place your efforts into this kind of site with information than waste your time trying to talk to people who aren't interested in any other opinion, other than their own.

Was it Mark Twain who said?

"Never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person."

My best,

Beth

Beth,

Thank you, and I agree and there is nothing more important than hearing all sides of this. I have said that from day one, even if I have my views, I still want to hear it all.

Hope you are well,

J a m e s  G

JamesG -- I think you are doing well.
I do like your site.

I do have some remarks:

1.  You are questioning settled doctrine or dogma.  That does not set well.
You will get abuse and hate mail.  I suggest that you delete it.  Do not
respond.

2.  Those folks are a lunatic fringe; their views are -- by definition --
without value.

3.  Most in AA/NA are good people -- the silent majority.   Most will leave.
 Solve the problem; move on.

4.  The 5% who stay, stay because they decide to.  In a real sense, they
have no where else to go.

5.  I won't live to see it; perhaps you will -- but, 12 step will be seen
for what it is.   AA/NA is NOT growing!

Eventually, I expect that you will draw a line under all this; and, live
well.  I expect you to do just that.  I did.

I used Rational Recovery; I did not know it at the time.  I found later that
I did.

I remain anonymous.

Regards

Anon,

I have wanted to draw a line under all this on many occasions but I am learning too much at the moment to do it just yet. There was a time when it became all consuming and took over my life, but despite the effort many believe I put into the films, and the site, it is much less than I would ever be putting into the program (and not receiving from) if I was still in the program; for now I remain on the fringes, and enjoying life.

You write your points so well that I don’t think I can add anything further of value except to thank you for taking the time to let me hear your views.

Kind regards,

J a m e s  G

James,

Here you go, both pamphlets in Word and pdf.  If there are problems
with the documents.

I like you website and videos.

Take care,
Helene

Final here - neutral here.

Helene,

Thank you for those - I would encourage anyone on here to download and print out these pamphlets that highlight the alternatives to AA and other 12 Step fellowships.

Well done!

J a m e s G

 

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