Letters

Had a quick look at your site. Please, please take the following as intelligent debate. I most certainly am not brainwashed! I think, walk, talk for myself not AA!! I most certainly do not agree with a lot of what you say - if AA disappeared today, I would remain sober, although I would find it more difficult as I would have to try harder to seek people out to share my innermost fears and feelings, which for me is the key to remaining sober. (I've tried both ways - sharing it all with a peer group who empathises works better for me). This peer group could be found outside of AA, but for me, finding it within AA is easier, quicker and more convenient.

I did not accuse you of being brainwashed. I refer to brainwashing twice on the website – 1) ‘When I was a member of A.A. I had been brainwashed into believing that anyone who doubted this program was ignorant and evil.’ 2) ‘People in AA openly admit that they may be being brainwashed by this program, but then go on to justify this by stating that their brains need washing.’ Neither of those two statements mention you. The second one refers to ‘people’ and People in AA do say this; I am quite sure you have heard it at a number of meetings. Perhaps you thought I said, ‘Everyone in AA…’ But I might add, if you do ‘think, walk, talk for myself,’ how do you practice Step Three? (I am asking you that with an open-mind; I am merely curious to know how this is possible.)

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great site, i have spoken to you several times now, but would like to tell anybody else reading why i am anti AA as well.

Like you i was 19/20 when i first went into AA , as i knew i was a hopeless alcoholic who simply could not, nor would not stop drinking. I didnt stick around AA back then - it was a good place to get a coffee, cigarette and maybe a few ££

Then 2 years ago i really had to stop bingeing on the white lightning. So i knew from previous experince that AA was the place, id known nothing else, and both detox centres id done years ago recomended AA.
I visited the doctor - he suggested AA and "join a gym".

I did both.
I really got into the steps this time and got a sponsor, i really belived that he had all the answers.
I started doing the steps, and found the meetings fantastic.

When it came to step 4 though i started having serious doubts. "i baulked" as bill wilson would say.
I asked my sponsor, who seemed really eager to get all this stuff down on paper, what all my drunken mistakes,sexual inventory, resentment list, had to do with drinking?

I was told "resentment" was the number 1 offender. That i had a spiritual "maladay"- alcoholism was merley a cure for the symptom of resentment etc and writing it all down would cure me from alcoholism.

I did a step 3 prayer in a church yard and my sponsor mentioned that there had been a "physical change" in me.

Being catholic i spotted the religious dogma straight away.
I started to question...

AA have meetings in churches?
They say prayers at the end?
Writing my sins down will deliver me salvation?
GOD is mentioned a LOT!
Maybe this is a religious cult?

My sponsor evaded these issues with a statement that completley confirmed my suspicions.

"if you want what we have you have to go to any lengths, this is a course of vigourous action, and if you dont get it you may as well f*** off and have a beer"

I then dropped my interest in the spiritual side of AA and know now that it is actually a dangerous cult. So sinister that people in it dont realise they are even in it. "religion on the sly" i once remarked to an astonished meeting!

Its been a good 6 months since i dropped the AA dogma, and i havent drank either!

Thanks for the compliment on the site. I am planning some new improvements and I will keep you posted. I am grateful you have chosen my site to share your views – this letter will be posted on the letters page.

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I have read some of your site ( I will continue to read more), and you are coming from the same place as me. I am three years sober - two and half of which was spent 'in the rooms'. Whilst in AA, I experienced the profound experience of 'mind control', symptoms such as: the inability to think for myself, constant guilt and apprehension, and a constant process or rewriting my personality to fit AA dogma. My mind was just a conveyer belt of clichés - and my "old self" became a distant memory. To some in AA that is exactly what should have happened - I should have changed my entire thinking. Because eventually, to avoid death, I would have 'to seek and do Gods will'.

What I experienced, I now know, is what happens in most cults. Trust is betrayed and dogma rules. Spiritual feelings of bliss replace all kinds of rational, humanistic principles. AA is a cult. The morality of cults is something I am unsure of. Should cults be allowed to exist? I don't know. Should AA be allowed to exist? I don't know.

What is so important about your website is that experiences within the rooms are heard. Truth has been so disregarded by recovery zealots that it can only help society and the public to balance out what has become a fascistic organisations run by - for want of a better term - cult members.

I notice you are in England? Are you London based? I would also like to write a few articles for your website if that's okay? I don't have the time or resources to set up a web page - but I would like to get involved in the UK AA critics.

I am so glad to hear from you and thank you so much for your letter. The site is very new and I would be enormously grateful for any help. Let me know what you would like to write about or just send me some stuff and I will post it.

Great website - I have now read through it, and give what you have said some thought. With a detailed account like that, it will take me a few re-reads - but the general jist has proved very interesting and insightful. Great vids as well. I am still left confused and slightly shocked after my two years 'in recovery'. AA is one hell of a powerful machine.

I have been thinking for a few months now of writing an article entitled "Faith Before True Belief - My Conversion To The AA Way of Life". I hope to be as fair and 'evidence based' as possible. As discussed, it would be great if I can tack it on to one of the critics sites, and seeing as your UK based then may I offer it to you for your site? It is very much in the 'notes stage' and will take me a few months to complete.

Thanks for the email and the praise, as Orange would say. Of course you are confused. I can't even choose what milk to buy without thinking of Step 3 or my sponsor. I would really like to hear more about your fears as well - it will give me some ideas for what I may write about next. I have found the process of writing down my thoughts and reading other people's experience and opinions very helpful in combating my own fears.

I am very excited about your article and would be most honoured to host it once you have completed it. If you need any assistance please do not hesitate to let me know.

PS Have a read of the letters I have received from a friend still in AA - they are interesting. Anything to add?

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Is good to see someone finally representing UK XA leavers. As an ex NA member (with a LOT of AA experience), I find that whilst 12step groups do not have such a big influence over here as they do in the states, this leaves the problem of even less people being aware of the dangers. I do my best to promote the truth (including my MySpace group, Recovering Without AA: click here to go to this group- would appreciate a quick plug), but without the extreme coercive element, as seen in the US, AA et el will never be scrutinised as closely as it should. Shame, as the 12 step PR policy of saying nothing as an organisation, but allowing members to publish pretty much whatever they want in periodicals seems to have been very effective over here. AA’s public image is superb in the UK.

Also, the range of UK self help groups that are not based on religion is miniscule. As far as I am aware, there are two SMART meetings nationwide (one in Scotland, another on the Isle of Wight, and a few SOS ones in London.

Good luck with the site. Keep on working at it, the work you are doing is not in vain. I would love to show it to some of my old friends from NA!

Thank you so much for your letter. A 'quick plug' is not a problem at all. Just write a brief description of your Myspace group and I will link it in somewhere. Perhaps you could add a link to this site too ? We are still young and need all the support we can get.

AA's public image is very strong here but I am not convinced we can't make a difference. I am quite reasonable at this stage about my objective - which is quite simply to stop AA telling people that it is the only way in which to recover. Some of the people I talk to who are involved in social services do find a lot of what we are saying about our experiences of the 12 steps disturbing. Oddly enough it is usually the slogans that cause the most concern. They are so self-defeating.

I would be happy to see AA exist provided it was honest and open-minded about alternatives. It's inability to do this is what turns it from something potentially helpful for rock bottom religious drunks to something which is VERY dangerous in my opinion.

I think any close friend and a belief in oneself is without a shadow of a doubt the most effective weapon against addiction. SMART is an interesting concept which I am looking into at the moment. What is your experience of it? Again, SOS is something I am exploring.

PS Confession Session Part 3 is ready for upload this evening - I will send you an invite - let me know what you think - now uploaded.

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I recently found the Orange Papers and they truly helped me realize I was not the crazy one! Sure, I got myself into some serious trouble abusing alcohol but the 'treatment' certainly felt worse than the 'disease"! I'm still struggling with the disease model of alcoholism and I'm leaning toward it being a bad habit rather than an incurable deadly disease like diabetes (as rehab likes to say). Anyway, I wrote to Agent Orange asking him how we can stop the rehab lunacy, having realized the amount of money my health insurance co.paid for hours (~76 total!) of garbage (including discouraging gym workouts since that interferes with meetings and discouraging quitting smoking-apparantly you can smoke all you want as long as you don't drink). Discouraging family and friend relationships ('they can't help you, they're not alcoholics'!) is I think nearly crimina. Perhaps money is the only thing that will make people pay attention to the situation and those joke rehab centers are making it hand over fist. EVERYONE here with a DUI (even 1) or any type of drug charge is sentenced to at least 10 hrs per week for 6 weeks of 'treatment'. If you don't have health insurance, the state has to pay. AND!! If the counselors feel that you have not responded well to treatment, they can extend your stay! Am I the only one who sees a problem here? Knowing this, I found myself in a rehab full of very creative liars(myself included)-"we love AA!, we love our sponsors!-we can't GET to enough meetings"! Ofcourse we will say that! We don't want our sentences extended! Conditions for 'graduation' from this rehab included not only getting an AA sponsor but showing a strong relationship with him/her. We all needed hip boots for my exit interview!! I've been looking for tapes of 'AA exposed' like a news documentary but I haven't found any. Your videos are an excellant start. Anything I can do to help, let me know. I have some ideas but it's so hard since ofcourse, we dumb drunks don't know anything!

Thank you so much for your letter. I have been working on a few more videos which I will release shortly. Any help would be very much appreciated; the site is still very young and needs more contributors. I, too, am alarmed by the system in the US that forces people into a religious program. If nothing is done, I think the UK will/is going the same way. AA needs to be exposed. If AA was more transparent I could accept it but it is the recruiting methods that they employ that are hidden behind anonymity and their definition of 'spirituality' that shifts AA from being a good thing to a very dangerous thing. The fact that anyone who gets sober is conditioned into wearing their recovery like a medal means that for many non addicts or alcoholics, AA is the only form of recovery they hear about. For those of us who choose to use our wills and our own inner strength to beat our demons, we have no 12th step that makes us shove our recovery down the throats of anyone who cares to listen. That coupled with many 12 step members being involved in the field of addiction without having to disclose their affiliation to AA makes our task a very hard one indeed.

If you would like to contribute any articles or opinions please do not hesitate to let me know and good luck with everything.

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I'll help you out with any writing and articles if you like- im right in there with your opinions and have voiced the same in meetings.

Thanks for your email. I agree with the colour issues on the site and I am working on them at the moment. Everything looks great on my computer but that does not mean the same is true for everyone else’s.

I would be really interested in hearing what kind of feedback you receive when you share honestly in meetings. As for the articles, anything you want posted just send to me and I will post it. I am going to add a section for guest writers soon.

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It's good to hear from you again. I got your previous letter. I'm just slow at answering emails, sometimes, and this is one of those times. The weather is getting to be beautiful out there and playing in the sun is a lot more fun than sitting in front of a computer, so I have been letting my email pile up until I really have to get rid of some of the backlog.

Submit your video to all of the big search engines. I remember that Yahoo and Google had their own submission form. And then there was a generic shared form that would take care of many others with just one common form. I forget whose it was, but just do them all: Yahoo, Google, Inktomi, AskJeeves, MSN, Voyager, Lycos, Scooter, Altavista, Voila.

Orange,

Thanks for all your help - it is much appreciated. I liked your reasons for not replying due to the nice weather - it is so refreshing to hear of someone who is able to enjoy themselves without feeling guilty and why the hell not? Enjoy the sun!

I had a tough letter from a friend in AA who I respect. I do not respect his views but he is a good man and means well but he is caught up in all this as well but he is more open-minded than most. I am new to all this and as such I am not sure I used the right arguments or facts. Please let me know and feel free to post it on your site. To see the letter go here.

I really hope the UK is able to catch on to the truth like the US has with your site - that is my main objective with all this.

Hoping for more sun your way...

J a m e s G

PS I am soon to release the video Confession Session Part 2 - will keep you posted. Adding links on the Orange Papers to my site have really helped both the site (and thus the cause) and my belief in myself and my thoughts. Sometimes I feel like I might be wrong but hearing from other people who feel the way we do really does a lot to reverse that damned step 2. Did you doubt yourself fleetingly at times when you first started out? I never doubt myself totally, but at times I ponder and AA dogma comes back for a moment but I KNOW it is not right.

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Fantastic website, I joined AA 4.5 years ago and left 9 months ago, like you it was a case of "I was guilty of admiration prior to investigation" too but as i began to get bored of hearing all the same stuff and started to see the veneer peel away from the readings (partic. the 12 and 12) to expose scorn and criticism of any other way of life/sobriety, I began to get angry and confused at this belief system, i also began to see people who had been in the program for a long time, and they were not happy people, not like what's suggested in the "Promises". Like Agent Orange you do us a service providing websites like this, there are so many people who left AA and stayed sober, there are other ways, people are just told that there aren't, that to leave AA will result in insanity and death - just how horrific is that!

Thank you for your email. I agree with what you say - my main objective is to highlight the fact that AA instils a belief in its members that it is the only way in which to recover with threats of death. This has to change.

i went to aa seeking advice on how to stop drinking as my drinking experiences were becoming increasingly embarrassing. any way, i started going to aa and loved it, the people were so friendly and i took to it like a duck to water, went to meetings, enjoyed the social life and the spiritual part got a sponsor and began to do the steps after about 5 months, i absolutely loved the program and the sense of being special and a bit morally superior because i was a chosen one, no seriously i did think there was something pretty cool and unique about it.

That sense of feeling morally superior reminds me of how I used to view ‘normies’ including my own family. I too felt a bond with those in AA but after a while I realised that all we socialised about was the program and the Steps – everyone talked the same way, and said the same things. Talking to one friend in AA was like talking to anyone in AA unless of course they were a newcomer who could be indoctrinated with what AA had instilled in me. AA is a factory that attempts to produce ‘recovering alcoholics’ that come off a conveyer belt and any of those products that are defective are removed from the line. Replication and imitation is the ideal; individuality is the devil. (Of course some people in AA can think for themselves but that begs the question of why they need to go in the first place? Perhaps they love the drama! Although AA is about as repetitive as the story lines in the worst soap-operas!) Talking to old timers was so dull; it was like a one way monologue, it reminded me of being in lectures at university. The really ‘effective’ old timers knew how to silence anyone with less sober time than themselves by interrupting or quoting slogans that unbeknown to me were gospel, even to myself, despite the fact I had never consider their true meaning. When anyone told me to ‘Keep it simple’, I would feel as though my thoughts were being ignored because they were reasoned based, not faith based.

i was in a year when i first saw some anti-aa literature on the web after a mate of mine outside the rooms suggested AA was dodgy, he'd read it in this book he got for christmas about deception, lies and misinformation, needless to say i got curious and came across stanton peele's website and got the fright of my life, saw anti-aa stuff, really rocked my boat and got me worried, so i went to a meeting and started to see it as it really was, got really worried, spoke to aa oldtimer who reassured me that aa worked for him and so i kept on going, never questioning it again.

When I was in AA no one ever mentioned alternatives or any criticism of the program. I am grateful for this in some respects because perhaps if they had I would still be caught up in it. Who knows. The fact that no one ever criticised the program set alarm bells off in me, especially because so many people were leaving AA and getting drunk. I remember being in a meeting when the chair said that ‘recovery was marginally better than drinking’. I respected him for having the courage to say something like that at the time. It sounded like an honest account to me because he was not harping on about how his worst day in sobriety was better than his best day drunk (What a load of bollocks – just writing that now makes me feel sick to the stomach – so much for an honest program). Someone shared back to this man and told him he was ‘angry with him for using the word ‘marginal’ because it sends the wrong message to the newcomer’. That planted the seed in me – I could not see how the chair had breached any of AAs rules yet he was still being criticised. I am sure there were a lot of people in the room who agreed with the guy that was angry but they were probably scared by the chair because AA’s indoctrination had failed on this man. In other words, his idea of honesty was just that – not exaggerating or even lying about how effective the program was. I have no idea whether he was being honest or not, but one things for sure he was being silenced. Maybe he was miserable in his recovery but was stuck between a rock and a hard place – it does not really matter. What matters is that he was told quite clearly that he should lie or at the minimum withhold the truth despite the fact ‘this is an honest program’. I went on the Internet that evening and found the Orange Papers. That seed now had a constant source of water…(That last sentence sounds like something Bill Wilson would write! HA HA!)

met my boyfriend in the rooms, mentioned to him about seeing anti-aa stuff ages ago, he goes and looks for it on the net and starts to get serious doubts about aa, he started to display unprogram-like behaviour too :D, started to leave meetings early, walking out during the chair, when he'd share it wasn't shaped within the aa language and i started to worry he would drink again cos he began to say that aa was a cult and he wasn't going to be a part of it, he was so miserable in aa that i supported his leaving in the end because he was so unhappy in it.

anyway i enjoyed it up until i began to read anti-aa stuff myself, literature my partner left around, then one day i had a cold and stayed in bed and read the whole of Steven Hassan's Combating Cult Mind Control, my God, the similarities with his description and aa were astonishing, aa really falls within the cult bracket. However, before all this, i had always thought the belief that if you leave aa you will die was rather dodgy, i mean, ok we're dealing with drinking problems which can have mortal consequences, but still! and then i started to really see the passages in the 12 and 12 for what they were, Atheists being described as Savage minded! the pompous tone of the literature. it got to the stage where i saw through the faulty logic of the basic beliefs, that it wasn't aa or the highway, that there were other organisations that aa would not acknowledge. If AA's primary purpose was to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety, then as a health resource, surely they should be promoting other ways too (like SMART, SOS, WFS, Lifering, MFS), not telling people that if they don't like aa and don't go they will die or go insane - aa obviously has it's own interests at heart! The stats that you hear in a meeting, god knows where they come from! George Vaillant's study was very much an eye-opener. I found other approaches more attractive and humane, like Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) which is designed specifically for the anxiety disorders (of which addiction comes under) and CBT doesn't berate or beat people over the head or insist they need a Higher Power to give them a DAILY reprieve from drink - some wierd conception of God! Plus AA says you can have your own belief in God - which isn't true, it's aa's conception of God.

Nothing to add to that other than the fact I wholeheartedly agree with,’ If AA's primary purpose was to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety, then as a health resource, surely they should be promoting other ways too (like SMART, SOS, WFS, Lifering, MFS), not telling people that if they don't like aa and don't go they will die or go insane - aa obviously has it's own interests at heart!’ I could not put it better myself! I did consider going to a few meetings and sharing about alternatives but I now know that would be futile although I might do it simply to gauge the reaction. I did share in a meeting recently against the program – ouch – chairs shuffling, keys rattling, murderous eyes, and everyone suddenly got nasty coughs. (Keep an eye out for my account of this on the site.)

Then i went to a convention in east london, and people were asked to chant out loud the preamble, it was so creepy, i couldn't chant it myself, something inside me said that this was so wrong! Vision meetings helped me in my decision to leave, now those members are from another planet altogether - one guy shouted out that if an alcoholic didn't do the steps he would die, i felt like punching his lights out- i mean he could check his facts out first before bandying this crap around - loads of people stay sober without aa - even real alcoholics!

At the end of the meeting we had to chant the serenity prayer and ‘It works if you work it’. Can you imagine how uncomfortable I felt holding hands with the guys next to me after speaking out against the program? I had just told them I did not believe it worked and yet I was holding hands in a circle and being forced to lie! Makes me laugh now, but on a serious note, all these rituals make you want to feel a part of the group, tow the line, sell yourself – the war on self. Of course people stay sober without AA and it is ridiculous to say that the 95% of people that AA does not ‘work’ for die of drinking. They die, but not because of drinking – I want to have a new slogan for this site – ‘If you work the steps you will die!’ We may as well because it is as true as saying ‘if you don’t work the steps you will die’ – everyone has to die eventually.

aa is too prescriptive too, alcoholism isn't a spiritual malady, it's a learned coping mechanism/behaviour coupled with a genetic disposition in some to a bad reaction to alcohol.

I am sure it is a learned behaviour but I do not know enough about the genetic causes to offer any comment on them, although I do find that an interesting concept that I will be looking into in some detail.

Hardly a rant! If you want to hear a rant pick up your ‘Where to Find’ and look for a step meeting and wait until they do Step 4. Yawn Yawn!!!

how long were you in aa for? did your AA friends stay in contact or did they keep their distance?

I have been in AA since I was 19 although I have not stayed sober all that time. I have also been a member of NA and Alanon. I went to my first Alanon meeting at the age of 15. I am 28 now.

unfortunately most of mine didn't understand my choice to leave, saying that my bloke and i do have a couple of mates from aa but they are pretty much on the outskirts anyway.

I have a couple of friends left in AA including one that has been kind enough to respond to this site. Despite what I think of his views, I do respect him and I admire him for having the courage to respond. Ironically, it was the people who I indoctrinated in Step Nine that were the hardest to get to understand why I left AA. After all reversing statements like, ‘My life is mortgaged to AA’ or ‘I don’t ever want to stop going to meetings’, is a very hard thing to achieve. It was made harder by the length of time I have been involved in all this and the time I spent in rehab – don’t forget rehabs involve family programs. Sick.

Thanks for your email – if you are interested in writing for the site I would love to have you on board. Do you know of anyone else who might be interested? We need all the support we can get.

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Im sorry Its taken me so long to write to you. I know how important all this is to you and I wanted to write something that would mean something and not just because I thought I had to. Now seems like the right time...Before I just stared at the screen and didnt know where to start. I come to this site a lot, read what you have to say, what other people have to say...I havent known you very long...but from what youve told me your a much happier person having left AA and have found yourself again. Youre an amazing guy James, Ive told you this before. I think youre a very strong person and Im very proud of you and what youre doing on this site. Its takes a lot to speak out and say what you really want to, its even harder when you have millions of people telling you that your wrong and who dont believe in you or anything your saying - I do though... I know how much time and effort you put into this site and despite what you might think sometimes its not all for nothing. You help people everyday without even realising. Youre a very special guy, you have an amazing ability to fill people with hope and to let people know and feel like they arent alone...Keep doing what youre doing...Its important... You say things other people think but dare not say...Its through this site you'll let people know its okay to think for themselves.. that its okay to have an opinion and question things... and that there are other ways and that AA isnt all you have to believe in and where it has to end.

Thank you for your message – it means the world to me to hear from people who appreaciate what I am doing. A lot of people assume I automatically feel good about all this but in truth I hate having to be the one that speaks out against the status quo – it is against all that has been instilled in me for the last 9 years.

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Good work my friend, it's personally amazing the difference I see in you
since you've shrugged of the shroud of 'alcoholism'. I'm certainly glad
you're out of the blame/guilt cycle that could only really perpetuate a lack
of self esteem and worth. Powerlessness is not the first step to anything!
If that were true then clearly everything is pointless! Well done for having
the strength of character to realise that you're not powerless and have your
own inner strength to improve yourself. And I'm sure it won't always be easy
but it's a damn sight better than throwing in the towel now and declaring
yourself fucked for the rest of your life and in constant need of a 'higher
power'. Here's to you Jim, and all you decide to do...

Thank you for your message and all your support since April last year. I owe you one.

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I don’t pretend be an expert on AA, nor am I religious but I know you
very well and I was close to you when you were trapped within the boundaries
and beliefs put upon you through the AA regime. James, I’ve always admired
your spirit and your confidence. Although I’ve known you less than a year
(only a fraction of the time you’ve been a member of AA) I do feel I’ve
experienced enough second-hand to give me a good idea of the effects it has
had upon you. Although this may not be true in every instance, I personally
saw how AA has crushed your confidence, initiative, and your dreams. You have
put your life on hold for too long! You are a very good friend James and I care
about you. I personally think You’ll be able to live a much more fulfilling
live without AA and I’m so glad you’ve made the most important step, to leave them!